Patrick Adams  00:00

Hello, and welcome to the Lean solutions podcast. My guest today is Mark graven and Mark is a returning guest. He was with us back in season one when we talked about his book measures of success. Today, we’re going to be diving into his newest book that released in June the mistakes that make us cultivating a culture of learning and innovation. He’s also the author of the award winning book, Lean hospitals, improving quality, patient safety and employee engagement. He serves as a consultant through his company, constancy Inc. He’s also a Senior Advisor for the technology company Connexus. Mark is the host of a couple of different podcasts, actually lean blog interviews, and then my favorite mistake. So welcome to the show, Mark.

 

Mark Graban  01:16

Patrick. Hey, it’s great to be back. Thank

 

Patrick Adams  01:17

you. Absolutely. So I’m super excited to talk about your book that just released recently, the mistakes that make us and I’m interested to hear like the inspiration behind this because obviously you you’ve been running your blog and a couple other podcasts which you and I’ve have interviewed each other both ways. But you you recently started a podcast my favorite mistake not too long ago and I’m just kind of curious, the connection there. You know, what was the inspiration for the book?

 

Mark Graban  01:49

Yeah, I mean, I started the My Favorite mistake podcast right about the time you started your podcast, September 28. You know, pandemic work from home kind of project. But you know, some of the roots of it go back a little bit further to a book that I published and contributed to called practicing lean, and was about 2015 or so like some mutual friends of ours, Paul Akers, Jamie flinched bods when we Parker 15, other authors all wrote a chapter kind of around this theme of looking back to mistakes we had made in our first year or two of Lean practice, you know, sharing those stories as a reminder, I mean, like, mainly, I’m, like, you know, pointing a finger at me, as a reminder of, you know, hey, when other people are new, to a practice like this, they’re going to make mistakes out of enthusiasm, or, you know, not having a great coach by their side, like, don’t be too hard on people, when they’re learning. And now there’s, you know, we hope to the book, people could learn from some of the mistakes we made, that was one level, but then the other level was this reminder of, you know, we’re all human, we’re doing our best mistakes are going to happen. So don’t be too hard on others. And again, a reminder to myself, don’t be too hard on myself. So that project had been out there and is, you know, as you know, and people listening in Lean land, we get focused on things like mistake proofing and trying to prevent errors in different ways and not blaming individuals for systemic mistakes. And so then started the podcast, September 2020. I’ve been doing the Lean podcast since 2006. And occasionally would get pitched different guests like, Oh, someone’s got a new book out and don’t want to have them on your podcast. And, you know, I’d say no, if it wasn’t at least kind of adjacent to lean. One of those people. Kevin Harrington, who had been one of the the sharks on Season One of Shark Tank like they were pitching him. I thought, I would really love to find a way to say yes, I could have shoehorn them into the Lean podcast, but with some brainstorming back and forth with the PR people like what do you think about a podcast about learning from mistakes? I thought it was a great idea. Kevin Harrington thought it was a great idea. He was he was the guest with his co author, another entrepreneur, Mark tam on Episode One of my favorite mistake, and then fast forwarding to March of 2022, after about 100 Plus episodes under my belt and, you know, started saying like, there’s some patterns here, right? I think I’m doing some pattern recognition. There are definitely lessons learned, not just stories from the podcast guests, but the lesson about learning from mistakes as individuals and then how do we create a culture in our workplaces? Where we can focus on learning from mistakes is part of that cycle then of trying to prevent the recurrence of that mistake and preventing other mistakes, you know, it sort of started down the path of being a book project and kind of took a meandering path. There’s a lot of things tend to do the initial book concept to, to what got published, but I’m really happy with the results. And I hope readers are going to agree, I hope it’s interesting reading and I hope, maybe more importantly, that it’s helpful for people some ideas about how can we build or strengthen a culture of learning from mistakes,

 

Patrick Adams  05:30

powerful in just hearing hearing you talk through that I was thinking to myself, about, you know, just myself and like, Am I worried about making mistakes? And where does that come from? And I suppose thinking through that a bit, you’ve been around the world, you’ve talked to people all over the world, do you? Is it a you? Is it like a US culture thing? Or is it something like are all cultures that way? Like, why are we so afraid to make mistakes? Why are we do you? Any you have any thoughts on that? I mean, where does that come from? Yeah,

 

06:03

I mean, it’s a great question. I mean, I’ve got some of my own reflections and what others have taught me. I think there are some human tendencies. I don’t know if I’m fully qualified, I can’t point to research that says, Okay, how universal is this? How much of it is Western culture versus other parts of the world and business cultures? But I mean, I think on a couple levels, making a mistake, stings, right. I mean, one of my guests, who’s a psychologist, taught me a little bit and don’t ask me to name the part of the brain, but there is a part of the brain that is our mistake, detector, or mistake making detector. And there’s got to be kind of a helpful evolutionary trait there of realizing when we’ve made a mistake, like if we made a decision that we thought was a good decision at the time, we take action that we thought was the right action at the time, and then at some point, we learned, okay, no, not really, not so much, we could be completely wrong, we could have been a little bit off track, we could call that a mistake, it’s probably helpful to recognize it. But then I think the question is, what do we do next? Do we beat ourselves up? Do we dwell on the mistake? Like, that’s probably not super helpful. But I think, you know, to me, and I’ve seen from others when you can get past the sting. And there’s people have taught me that a mistake that we make in front of others, that adds an embarrassment factor. Right? So making a mistake that no one else knows about, like, okay, that might sting. But maybe, you know, hopefully, that’s easier to get past compared to the embarrassment factor. But then when we make a mistake that’s apparent to others, I think the reaction of those other people matters greatly. Right? Can I be kind to myself and get past the mistake, are others reacting kindly, to my mistake, whether they’re my boss, or my clients or colleagues or wherever that relationship is? I think being able to focus on moving forward acknowledging the mistake acknowledging if there was a bad outcome, not dismissing that, but then saying, Well, what what did we learn? What was there a bad assumption? What could we do differently in that situation? Or a similar situation? Or how can we try to learn in a way that mistake proofs? A repeat, I think being able to have that forward focus, can can can take us down a more positive path instead of looking back or saying like, Oh, you know, like, language, a lot of my guests will use language, like labeling. Oh, that was a stupid mistake. Like I, I understand, like, I do that sometimes. But I don’t think that’s like, I think that kind of language isn’t helpful. I think it’s good to say, I made a mistake. That was the mistake, like point out the fact of it, and try to avoid language, like dumb mistakes, stupid mistake, whether that’s directed toward ourselves, or others. So I think some of those things might be some human nature to get out of my own head about it and how I react? Sure, thanks. I think there are definitely some patterns. And, you know, maybe we can talk about this good research and understanding about what we can do in a workplace. More psychologically safe there. There are some things there that point to some pretty universal human tendencies.

 

Patrick Adams  09:30

Sure, sure. And I think you’re spot on with that. And it’s, it’s super interesting to me, because, you know, I obviously work with a lot of organizations where they have that fear based culture where people are just so worried about, you know, they made a mistake, and they just, they don’t want to bring it to light or they don’t want to be transparent about it because of some kind of backlash that they might get about that.

 

09:56

It’s not even fear. It’s probably been demonstrated to them. But they founded fear and unfortunately in workplaces, right? Yes.

 

Patrick Adams  10:05

And that that is that does bring up a question, you know, so So obviously, the question that I just had was about me personally, or a person who makes a mistake, and they’re feeling, but what do you think it comes from for leaders that are creating those types of environments? I mean, is that something they’ve been taught? Is that something that they just feel like will give them the right outcome if they created, you know, an environment where people are scared about making mistakes? Like, where do you think that comes from?

 

10:38

Yeah, I mean, it’s, I think a lot of it is maybe reinforced through workplace cultures, people following, you know, people young in their career at lower levels, following the lead of their more senior leaders, you know, workplaces, and I think of starting my career at General Motors, plant 1995, it was a very punitive culture. A lot of that, sadly, exists in healthcare today in the year 2023. But yeah, I think it’s sort of ingrained in workplaces. I think there’s a funny disconnect. I don’t totally understand yet. I think individuals will more quickly agree with a statement like, we’re all human, we all make mistakes. I mean, people will say, Okay, sure. You know, it’s human error. We make mistakes were imperfect. But then somehow, at an organizational level, there’s, there’s often this unfair expectation to be perfect, or not make mistakes. And so there’s, you know, there’s, there’s one train of thought where it could be people think, well, mistakes are bad, to get less of something that’s bad. We punish or threaten punishment. And people will learn not to make mistakes. The problem, though, is what people learn is covering up and hiding their mistakes. They get better at doing that. That’s right. I don’t think the fear is preventing mistakes. And there’s a assumption that probably goes back to like McGregor, Theory X thinking of like, do you think people are trying to screw up? But you know, people sometimes use this phrase, oh, well, that was an unintended mistake. And like, well, that’s redundant. Right? I mean, if somebody did it intentionally, that sabotage that’s different, that’s something you would punish, right. But if someone makes a mistake, you know, the punitive reaction on so many levels is counterproductive, like, somebody made a mistake, and you fire them. And if that mistake, most likely had some sort of systemic cause, you know, you put a new person in that same system, it’s a matter of time before they’re going to make that same mistake. Right. So it’s counterproductive to say, we’re going to fire the mistake makers like well, can we develop a test and identify the mistake prone, the most mistake prone and fire them proactively like that none of that really seems to work. So I think the punitive reaction drives mistakes underground. You know, we hear from a lot of different lean people, this idea that we cannot solve a problem that we don’t see that we’re not aware of. But then I got some interesting feedback from from some people on LinkedIn when it kind of posed this question like, What Why do people think the punitive approach works? And I thought, this is really eye opening? I can’t credit any one person and particularly like, Oh, they’re not being punitive, because they think it works. They’re being punitive, because it deflects responsibility. We can shift the blame to somebody else, like, okay, that’s maybe good for some individuals, but not not good for the organization. There’s some misalignment there. Oh, for sure.

 

Patrick Adams  14:01

Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, you touched on lean a little bit. I’m curious to hear a little bit more around, you know, how learning from mistakes fits into a Lean culture. You know, is it is it something that should be highlighted as a, you know, an important piece of developing a Lean culture? Is it something that, you know, isn’t necessary for developing a Lean culture? What are your What are your thoughts on that?

 

14:31

Yeah, I think I think it’s absolutely necessary. And we can point to Toyota and we, the team at Connexus. There are a lot of stories in the book more than I thought would have been the case when I started writing. So the book is not 100% based on podcast guests, maybe come back to chi Nexus, but But Toyota, I think there’s this pathway, where learning from mistakes AIX is one trigger for continuous improvement. Not all continuous improvement is reaction to a mistake. But that’s a lot of it. Even with the long history and practice of Poka Yoke, mistake proofing practices at Toyota, they still have final inspection at the end of their assembly lines because guess what? They do not yet have a perfectly mistake proofed built in quality process yet, and maybe they never will. I don’t know. But, you know, you look at this, this great collection of stories about Toyota and how leaders react to mistakes. So one of them the book, I see on your shelf, there are our friend Katie Anderson, who you went to Japan with, you know, a sow Yoshino who you met and got spend time with in Japan and I’ve gotten to do the same with him a long while ago. But you know, as Katie, you know, help document in the book and then Katie and Mr. Yoshino came on my favorite mistake, and told that story and Katie was supportive of me, kind of retelling a shorter version, people should go read her book and get more from it. But there’s that story. And then the parallel, so Yoshino Japan 1960s. My friend, David Meyer, who was also on the podcast, who started at Toyota in Kentucky, in the 80s have amazingly similar stories of wrong chemical going into the paint machine. Japan Yoshino wrong chemical going into a bumper part molding machine, Meyer and the team in Kentucky. In both cases, management reacted so consistently like this cannot be coincidence, this is culture. Leadership saying we, meaning the organization failed you, the workers and the team. We’re not blaming you for the mistake, we need to understand what happened and focused on learning from it. And preventing that from happening again, and I’ve heard stories in my my travels, I don’t think I’m necessarily authorized to share here or in the book. But like, when I tell these stories, people come up and like, you know, I did an internship at Toyota when I was in college, and here’s my story, like they have a similar story of a mistake where that reaction I’m not saying Toyota is perfect. Somewhere in the big wide world of Toyota today, some leader might have gotten upset about a mistake. Sure, right. But there’s this cultural intention of creating a culture of learning from mistakes and we can create that in other organizations and like going and looking at some of the Toyota way literature. The book Toyota culture by Jeff liker Mike Hosea San Jose asked was a Toyota employee and leader as they said in the book Toyota culture they are this is my mistake, I don’t have the exact quote handy because I’m doing a presentation next week. But they they talk about the importance of making it psychologically safe for people to be able to admit mistakes, to speak up to pull the and on cord. So here here’s the quote from the book I found that mistakes are okay as long as people learn from them. Right so that’s that’s pretty directly coming from Toyota. A quote that I put in the book from Akio Toyota of the family who had been until recently CEO and has now become chairman, saying it’s in our DNA at Toyota mistakes once made, aren’t repeated you know, so that’s there for people to you know, to pull in you know, some of those direct words from the book from Akio Toyota. And then I think you can see evidence of the psychological safety that they also emphasize in the book, Toyota culture you know, the the safety that’s there for people to speak up or and pull the and on cord. That’s a big part of the culture. A mistake isn’t the only reason you pull the and on cord, but that’s certainly one of them. Right? So there’s a lot I think of evidence that points to this being an important part of Toyotas culture, as we’ve heard from different people in different ways. And the good news is we can you know, we can work to build that culture, you know, at places like Connexus you know, if that’s something that you want to explore as being a younger software company, as opposed to an older global automaker,

 

Patrick Adams  19:51

Yeah, yeah, that’s really my next question is, is so you talked a lot about Toyota? And, you know, the, actually, before I even go to that question, one question that did come into mind. After hearing Mr. Yoshino tell his story and reading, getting Katie’s book and obviously, and then hearing you, I’m just thinking about how that made Mr. Yoshino feel. And because you talk, you’ve been talking, even mentioning psychological safety, and I want to get into that as well. But that’s a big part of the how you create a safe culture where people are learning from their mistakes, right? I mean, the ripples of that where someone doesn’t get reprimanded, they’re not getting yelled at. They’re, they’re being thanked. And they’re being told, you know, thank you for bringing this to our attention. You know, let’s work through this together and figure out how do we make sure it doesn’t happen again, that the ripples of that, yeah, for Mr. Yoshino are much different than they would have been otherwise?

 

22:16

Well, because he remembers that story, really vividly. And then when he became a leader at different levels, you know, he was gonna pay that back to others. And, you know, he asked, how did that make him feel? I remember, like, pretty direct quote from the podcast, you said it made him feel proud, yes, to be part of Toyota that they could have blamed me. And they did not. And like that might be surprising or eye opening to people, whether it’s there, or Georgetown, Kentucky, or I hope there are similar stories from when Toyota open their plant in San Antonio, right, or anywhere around the world. Like they want that to be a consistent culture. And it’s taught and it’s reinforced and emphasized in different ways. It seems coming, you know, from the CEO on down, and that’s the case, at CHI Nexus, that leadership comes from one of the co founders, not just from him, but it starts really, with Greg Jacobson is CEO and co founder, he came on my favorite mistake, and is willing to set that example of sharing and admitting stories about mistakes, and then creating a culture where, you know, similar way, the non punitive reaction to mistakes and being able to learn and I think that’s an important part of Toyota, or Connexus, is continued growth, even though they’re on so many levels, such a different kind of company than Toyota, it really comes back to people or leadership. I know I’m preaching to the choir here. This is not about leading tools. This is not about copy the and on cord. I mean, we know what happens if you copy it and on cord, and to have the tool and the method without having the mindset someone pulls the cord, they get yelled at for stopping the line. Forget the fancy words like psychological safety, they learn not to do that again. That’s right. And instead of being rewarded for it, so I think there’s there’s a flip side to the thinking, the incorrect thinking of, well, if mistakes are bad, I will punish mistakes, we will have fewer mistakes. There’s I think a flip side of it that says well, if I don’t punish that’s giving permission to make more. Again, that’s grounded in theory X thinking of saying people don’t care about, you know, having pride in their work. Well, I would say no, they they do. They do. People don’t want to make mistakes, especially mistakes that impact a customer or have an impact on the company. And if people don’t care about the connection, that’s a whole different cultural problem. That’s probably beyond the scope of anything. Do anything I could fix if people don’t feel that sense of connection between, you know, personal achievements and company success that that’s a deeper, a deeper thing to sort through?

 

Patrick Adams  25:10

Absolutely. In Mark, you gave us an example, here in the US of Connexus. Because my question was around, obviously, we know Toyota is doing this and doing it well has been, is it possible for other companies to? To do this? Can Can we create a culture where people feel safe to learn from their mistakes? And clearly, you gave us an example. You know, what, what would you say? You know, expand on what you talked about with Connexus? And how does it what does it take for leaders to create this safe environment where people can begin learning from their mistakes?

 

25:59

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we can create that culture. And there’s a fairly clear pathway. It’s not like flipping a light switch, like any culture change. It’s like building trust, it takes pretty sustained effort. It can take some time to build it can it can be wiped out, unfortunately, more quickly, you know, then it’s built. But you know, it’s real quick thing of a couple other CEOs who’ve been on the podcast, founders and, you know, really building this culture. One 800 flowers, again, by use ordered flowers or deaths are from them. They’re their foundries. Now, Chairman, Jim McCann, is very passionate about creating a culture where it’s okay to admit mistakes, and figure out how to learn from them. Michigan, so another mutual friend of ours, with within the within your state of Michigan, my original home state of Michigan, rich Sheridan from Menlo innovations, he was a guest on the podcast recently talking about that same idea within a different software and technology company. They’re in Ann Arbor. So I think, you know, at CHI Nexus, you know, as Greg and I reflected, and there’s more of some of his thinking in the book that we didn’t explore back in the podcast of, you know, he would say from the beginning, going back, let’s say to 2011, when when he and Matt, the other co founder, and then I was involved a little bit there, like there was intention around building, I see Katie’s book behind you. So every time I say the word intention, I think of Katie. Yeah, you know, that’s only her word. But I’m seeing the book. And she says that a lot. And maybe the some of that’s rubbed off on me, and that’s fine. But so high quality, but there was intention in creating a culture of continuous improvement. Within Connexus of everybody participating in improvement, it’s okay to speak up about opportunities for improvement. Because Connexus is serving customers. Through a technology platform, we’re serving customers that are building a culture of continuous improvement. So some of it is it’s just the right, we think the best way to run a business. We want to go experience what our customers are experiencing, and there’s alignment there. Now, what Greg would say is that there wasn’t the same explicit intent around building a culture of learning from mistakes that was a little bit more emergent. When you start having stories of stories I’ve been involved in as the mistake maker or someone in the position to react to a mistake, hearing other people’s stories, that there was a real pattern. But I think in a way, it’s a natural offshoot of things like respect for people, systems thinking, understanding mistake proofing, and that, you know, even Greg, in his exposure as an ER doctor has been exposed to the modern healthcare quality thinking of most, the old Deming idea that most problems are really caused by systemic factors. So we need to focus on improving processes and systems instead of getting rid of the quote unquote, bad apples. Right? So then once you kind of identify, Okay, yeah, there is a pretty consistent culture, of learning from mistakes. I feel confident enough, putting Conexus out there this way in the book, I’m not saying they’re the same as Toyota. But there are similarities, right? I think we’re all confident that it’s not going to end up being embarrassing, like, Oh, that’s not really a reflection of reality anymore. I really do think it is and the Kinect system would agree, but then back to psychological safety. As I’ve had a chance to start more formally studying this a year ago through Tim Clark, author of a great book called the four stages of psychological safety, taking some training and getting certified through him and his company. They have a psychological safety assessment 12 question survey with some freeform responses. And my sense was that psychological safety was pretty high at high Nexus. But so I proposed to Greg in the leadership team, I’m not proposing this because I think there’s a problem. I think it’s a good to great opportunity, can we do this assessment? And then they agreed, and, you know, Connexus went through and we had everyone do the survey, and the company scored in basically the 80th percentile. And so I went, Okay, sounds good. It’s good. It and they really then leaned in to figure out how do we identify barriers to people feeling safer, psychologically safer? And then, yeah, trying to identify what can we do to try to strengthen the sense of psychological safety, I love Tim Clark’s framework, he started off in manufacturing. Also, by the way, even as more of a social scientist, the two main countermeasures or actions that help build or strengthen psychological safety, our leaders a modeling what he calls vulnerable acts, things like admitting a mistake, saying I was wrong, et cetera, et cetera, and then rewarding others when they follow the lead. So modeling and rewarding, vulnerable acts, that’s something connects this thing generally does really well. But then realizing that there are opportunities to try to reinforce that culture, be more intentional, as more people join the company, make sure that this is part of kind of the cultural norm that that’s that’s explained and saying, Well, okay, we have a culture of emphasizing the learning instead of being instead of being punitive. And again, like when people make mistakes, when they care about the company in the mission, they feel bad, you don’t, there’s nothing to be gained from from getting upset, yelling at somebody, they feel bad, help them work through feeling bad, so then they can, you know, getting to a place now where they’re able to collaborate around root cause analysis, understanding the system and being involved in in the improvement phase. Yeah.

 

Patrick Adams  32:18

Mark, do you do you feel that creating this type of culture is, is this completely left up to the leaders? And what happens if the leaders leave that are doing this right? And and someone else comes in? That may be? I mean, how do you develop a system around this, make sure that you’re creating a culture that’s committed to this for long term?

 

32:47

I mean, there, I think it’s parallels to questions around Lean culture. Right? There’s that risk factor of what happens if you know, the lean zealot CEO leaves? Then there’s that moment of truth of like, who does the board or whoever’s deciding, who who’s the replacement? Is it a promotion from within somebody else who’s just as committed to that, whether it’s lean or psychological safety, or all of that together? If you bring in an outsider who’s lying now? Now, that’s not me, I’ve been successful in other places. We don’t need this. This woowoo psychological safety nonsense, I’m going to go back to cracking skulls when people make mistakes. Yeah, you’re going to drive away people who don’t have to tolerate that. So and framing it in a more positive way, you know, higher levels of psychological safety will help attract and retain talent. Oh, absolutely. There are many, many studies. This is not just a feeling but studies from Amy Edmondson and others about the direct connection between higher levels of psychological safety and business success. So like today, this was like lean or continuous improvement or respect for people, you could say, you could make a value judgment around. Well, that’s the right way to do things, the right way to treat people. But you could also argue and say, look, it’s it’s good business. That you know, so there’s yeah, there’s risk of bringing in the outsider, or maybe you promote someone who was just giving lip service. And then their true colors show. I mean, like, there are these moments of truth of how are leaders reacting to things. A culture is not only driven by the CEO. When you do surveys, and Amy Edmondson, saw this in some research around Google, you see variation in different teams in different parts of the company, because like there’s, there’s an effect from the CEO cascaded on down, but then local leaders, that’s really, maybe a bigger influence of how does that plant manager react to mistakes compared to a plant manager? Something like sales. So there’s there’s local impact and that and that’s how they’re able to identify that variable of psychological safety as being so important to Google when they were trying to answer the question of why are some teams and some businesses more successful than others? If psychological safety were evenly layered across the organization that I mean, they wouldn’t have discovered as a factor because it, I guess, because it wasn’t a factor. But they learned that it was and, and so you see the impact of leaders. And back to your question that risk of it could fall apart, as we’ve seen with a lot of the lean case studies, what, what happened to Wiremold, when they got acquired by a company that didn’t share the same viewpoint on Lean leadership, there is that risk. So it comes back to questions of the board and succession planning, and really making sure where that commitment is to keep that style of leadership going.

 

Patrick Adams  36:03

Absolutely. Great. Great points. For sure. So Mark, obviously, we could talk forever. And I’d love to hear more stories, you know, that you’ve put in the book, but I’m going to, I haven’t had a chance to read it yet. So I’m going to hold off on that I want to I want to read the book myself. And if anybody’s listening in that is also interested to hear more of these amazing stories and just some of the the insights that you have in the book, and help start creating cultures of their own to learn from mistakes. Where’s the best place to go to get a copy of the book.

 

36:38

So people can go mistakes book.com They go on Amazon, it’ll be available through other retailers, but most immediately right away on launch through Amazon in paperback, hardcover and Kindle versions audiobook to come probably fall. Okay. Of 2023. Here, congratulations on the release of your audio book, The shade that use appearance trap? Yes. follow in your footsteps there. It’ll be my first audio book.

 

Patrick Adams  37:12

All right, good deal. No, that’s, that’s great, what we’ll do is we’ll drop a link into the show notes for everyone. So if you’re interested to grab Mark’s newest book, you can go into the show notes and find a link directly to the website there. Otherwise, Mark, you’re you’re out on LinkedIn, I know very active on social media. So you can definitely find him there as well. Mark, it’s been great to have you on I always love touching base with you and catching up. Everything that you do for the Lean community, appreciate you and obviously looking forward to this book and the impact that it’s going to have on so many organizations, knowing and understanding that, that, you know, if we can just start learning from our mistakes, instead of feeling like we have to hide them. What a what an amazing culture that that can create for so many organizations. So thank you so much for that. Appreciate that.

 

38:07

Thank you I get excited about these things. I hope I didn’t make the mistake of rattling on too long.

 

Patrick Adams  38:14

Not at all. Not at all. No, I thought it was great. So thanks again and appreciate it. We’ll have you back on. Maybe towards the end of the year, sometime we can talk about how the books doing and maybe even dive into, you know, maybe one specific concept from the book. And yeah, yeah.

 

38:32

I’ve never put anyone on the spot with this question. But maybe I can ask about your favorite mistake whether you can do that on my podcast, or we can do it here on your home court.

 

Patrick Adams  38:42

Yeah, I’d love to do that. I have lots of lots of mistakes that I’ve made over the years. To to point out one would be think through that mark.

 

38:55

You gotta give someone time to think through this. Yeah, well, I

 

Patrick Adams  38:58

have lots for sure. I’ll do lots of learning to, you know, to like you, I understand the value of learning from mistakes and understanding that it’s part of the process of growing and developing yourself as a leader. So definitely, let’s let’s do that. Let’s jump on your podcast. I’ll bring, I’ll bring a one really, really good mistake that I’ve learned from over the years and we’ll talk about it. Okay, that’d be great.