Patrick Adams  00:00

Welcome to the Lean solutions podcast. This is the podcast that adds value to leaders by helping you improve performance using process improvement solutions with bottom line results. My name is Patrick Adams, and this season, I’ll be joined by three other amazing hosts, including Catherine McDonald from Ireland, Andy Ulrich from Australia, and Shane got involved from the United States. Join us as we bring you guests and experiences of Lean practitioners from all over the world.

Catherine McDonald  00:32

Hello and welcome to this episode of the lean solutions podcast led by your host Andy olrack and myself. Catherine McDonald, Andy, how are you today? I’m going great. Thanks, Catherine, yeah, full of beans. And really looking forward to this episode. How are you? I am great. Yes, great. And it’s really good to hear you’re full of beans. I know it’s early in the morning for you. So well done. Thank you. Well done. So Andy, today we’re going to talk about, I guess it’s a universal topic. Really. We’re going to talk about communication specifically, I guess communication in terms of Lean management and lean initiatives, but I guess it spreads out to basically communication in the workplace in general, and what effective communication looks like, and what poor communication looks like. And we have a great guest who’s going to come on and talk to us about that. I was wondering, Andy, from your experience, I Where have you seen communication make or break a lean initiative or lean effort?

Andy Olrich  01:38

Great question. Yeah, it certainly can have I’ve been in personally through some organizations or other organizations I’ve been into. I’ll give a share quick, very personal example of how great communication can really make a Lean transformation and and get people on the hook. I was actually going along for a job interview, and I walked into a facility, and I looked around, and I could see some some nice boards, some nice visuals. Anyway, rolling through, I went on a bit of a site visit after I met the leaders, and I was just on the hook. And it actually was that great and inspiring and engaging that they still are to this day. I actually sat down and said, Look, I am in but what are you guys actually? What are we actually making here again? So it was more around how, you know, effective. It was very clear what was how things were going. People were engaged. I basically knew who everyone in the team was, just by the great visual management that was around the place and working that organization. It was, it was just so great that we just the key messages were there. Everybody knew whether they were winning or losing at a glance. Yeah, that I found that a really positive experience. However, roll through to another organization. We were doing Lean or our continuous improvement methodologies, but you just couldn’t see there was nothing around and in particular around what’s coming up next in those you know, there’s other public communicating now, right? But the cons around we’re up to what’s coming up next, what the priorities were, you know, who’s who was being trained. All that was just completely in the back room and only seen by the leadership, really. So that was the actual just didn’t work. So, yeah, there’s examples there, but Yeah, certainly can make or break. So really excited for this topic today.

Catherine McDonald  03:21

Yeah, me too. Me too. And I think you’re right. We have to set up the right environment for people to succeed in. You know, we can’t bring people in and give them roles and responsibilities and even develop them if we don’t have the right environment for them to thrive in, including the right systems for communication and collaboration. So that is what our guest today is going to talk all about. So let’s introduce our guest today. We are joined by Leslie whirlington. Leslie is a communications and leadership coach, mainly working with quality insurance professionals. She works with individuals and teams to fine tune their quality conversations and initiatives to create a better understanding of the role and concepts of quality assurance throughout their organization. Leslie combines 20 years of quality and regulatory experience. She has university degrees in both psychology and law, 1000s of hours of teaching and coaching and her training as an executive coach to provide her clients with the skills, techniques, insights and mindset that raise their confidence, take their communication skills to the next level and allow them to have a positive impact in their organizations. So welcome to the show. Leslie, thanks

Lesley Worthington  04:34

very much. Happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Catherine McDonald  04:38

You are so welcome, and we’re very excited to meet you and to talk about this topic today. So Leslie, maybe just, I know I read your bio there, just if you could give us a little introduction to what you do at the moment, the type of work you’re doing, and talk to us a little bit about why you got into this whole area, which we’re going to talk. About which is effective communication, and what interests you about it so much,

Lesley Worthington  05:06

I think that I just finally realized what I wanted to do when I grew up about, you know, five years ago, it took a while. I kind of went off in all sorts of different directions, and this is it like I feel alive when I’m coaching people. So predominantly, that’s what I’m doing. I’m still doing a lot of one on one coaching. I do some master classes and things like that, on quality culture and and preparing training materials and things like that. But for the most part, I’m still focused on one on one and thinking, How do I scale this thing, you know, sort of at that stage. And I absolutely love what I’m doing. Like I said, I work predominantly with quality assurance people when I started, like, when I was in quality I was in medical devices. And so I started in medical devices and pharma that was mainly my target group. And I was actually working with non native English speakers at first, helping them with their communicate, with their English communication skills. And at a certain point I realized it’s not English that’s the trouble, it’s communication skills that’s trouble. And so then I sort of shifted a little bit. I’ve been always pretty active on LinkedIn, writing a lot, and every time I wrote about quality culture, it’s as viral as I would ever get, like, it’s like, people love that topic. So then I just, I don’t have a business plan. I literally just, like, just going forward and I’m doing what I don’t say no to anything, unless it’s really not in line with my with sort of My Vague plan, but now I’m predominantly a communication and leadership coach, like I decided I better get myself properly qualified as an executive coach, so I did that, and that’s what I’m doing now, and I absolutely love it.

Catherine McDonald  06:55

Excellent. Well done. You good stuff. Following your passions. You so,

Lesley Worthington  07:03

good stuff, good stuff.

Catherine McDonald  07:06

So Andy, I mean, you and I, both in the in the Lean space, are very much aware of the need for effective communication, particularly when it comes to Lean management, because lean, it’s almost like, well, it is a language of its own, and it’s great, because when you know lean, you have this shared language, and you can talk about it, and everybody understands what you’re saying in terms of the tools and techniques. But if you don’t know lean, and you know, you go into an organization and you’re new to lean, and you hear a lot of the lean terms. It can be, I guess, a little bit unsettling for people and Leslie, this is something you and I have spoken about. You have had some experience in this area, and maybe you could tell us a little bit about your experience with with Lean initially, and the the issues with the communication around it. Yeah,

Lesley Worthington  08:06

honestly, you know, when you when you invited me to be on this podcast, I’m thinking, Oh, I don’t know too much about Lean. And I really don’t actually have a very good taste in my mouth about lean, and I’ll tell you why. So obviously, I come at this from the perspective of, like, communication and relationships, and I’d say my first encounter with Lean was not particularly good on either front. So I’d been working in a small startup, and it was acquisition time. This was the third time I’d be part of this sort of process where it’s like, you, you know, start up, build it, sell bide my time, leave and go back to that original group. Build another one, sell it like that. So we had this cozy little group who literally took turns cleaning the bathroom, and it was taken over by one of the big boys. So they seemed absolutely oblivious that A, we built a company from scratch and got it to the point where they actually thought it was worth purchasing, and B, that we actually had an existing culture, and we also had names things like that. So and I’ll never forget the day that they swept in all very important, big fat egos, very important people indeed, but absolutely clueless when it came to managing the people end of the acquisition, not only was it like big company versus small company, but it was also USA versus Canada. So we just aren’t so loud and flashy in Canada, and we just don’t get impressed by stuff like that, like we don’t even put our degree qualifications after our names most of the time. Who cares, versus these guys, who had to make sure that we knew what university they went to like 30 years previously and what fantastic training they had, and out came the word lean, and it was obviously meant to be impressive, so we were. All looking at ourselves, going, Okay, well, I think I can kind of guess what lean means. The word kind of speaks for itself, and to a certain extent, so it felt like we were supposed to stand up and applause or something like it was, whoa. So. So the word lean was used over and over and over again, and we ended up making a nickname for the offenders. It was handy that their name started with L, like we had lean Linda and lean Larry, and we were, it was, it became a joke, almost. But me, being me, I scurried off after the meeting and went, Okay, like, what? What the heck is lean? What is this all about? And this was 15 or 20 years ago, and my conclusion was, uh, okay, we’re doing this that I think we’re pretty much doing this right. We just didn’t give it a name. We just did it. So my first encounter with Lean was underwhelming, to say the least, and my first encounter with the people who waved their little lean badges around like a badge of honor just really left a bad taste in my mouth. And the irony in this case, unlike Andy’s case, the irony was that with this group, lean was talk only like there was, this was probably the most inefficiently run organization I’d ever encountered. So so lean really, really, almost became a joke in our eyes. And it’s like, oh, okay, great, lean, whatever. So that’s my exposure to lean. So it hasn’t been very good. That’s

Andy Olrich  11:24

such a real example, and that the second point I touched on Leslie was around. It was actually during an acquisition by a large venture capital company, where at a place where I was working, where they said, Oh, we’re, we’re a lean organization. Come over and have a look. It’s pretty much what you’re doing here. It was not and I was fortunate that I’ve been in places that had used some lean tools and methodologies prior to the really good example. And I was like, you? I was like, actually, yeah, we kind of do that, but we just don’t call it that, or, you know, and it was very much around the mindset. And then what I liked about Lean was the done well, was very visual, very clear, very simple to so that people at all levels could engage. But, yeah, I walked through this other facility and I was like, wow, this is you. You talk a big game, but this is just completely not what I know this can be like. So that’s a that’s a fantastic example. And I guess Catherine, did you want to add any other comments around Leslie’s experience there at all?

Catherine McDonald  12:29

It’s just, it’s so real. And I know you said that was a number of years ago, but honestly, that still happens. And if, if there are people listening to this podcast who are lean practitioners, I really think we all need to challenge ourselves on our approach. When we go into an organization and we meet people who have never studied lean, who may not have ever heard of the word lean, I really think we have to and we talk about empathy all the time. We have to be empathetic and understand what these people need, and they do not need us to go around talking about Lean. We need to find ways to bring lean into organizations and make organizations lean to their language. You know, this is, this is my belief. And yes, over time, we can build the Lean terms and give people terminologies for things, but at the right pace. So I, you know, I still see this happen. Leslie, actually, I don’t think that issue has gone away. And we often hear, and we mention it on the podcast, that lean fails more times than it succeeds. And I would not hesitate to think that this is part of why, you know, I really do. I really do that first touch

Lesley Worthington  13:41

is just so unpleasant in many ways, right? And what you said, like a lot of people, I’m all about plain language and, like, speak plainly and be familiar to the audience. But a lot of people sort of take that and they and they think I’m saying always speak simply. But what you said, there is, like, in time, obviously, you know, help them understand the terms. Help them understand it. But then you have to start where they are, right, and that’s what people don’t do. So, yeah, I think, I think with any with anything, whether it’s lean or any other like methodology, even the word methodology drives me nuts, like, I just, like, that’s just whatever. Like, what is the point of it? Shit, help me understand what the point of it is. And then I’ll start listening. Like, make it relevant. And then I’ll care

Andy Olrich  14:31

such a Yeah. Why? Why would hang on a sec. Let’s take a step back while we talking like this. What is this? Yeah, there is a bit of fear when, Yeah, certainly. And touching again in the acquisition space, it’s like you’re coming in to lean this company right up, and in five years, the plan is just to offload, and who knows what sort of happens and but yeah, I’ve definitely found that the training is such a key part of and even if the person’s been in another organization that that may be familiar is, is. Kind of calibrating and baselining the entire organization around. Okay, well, in this context, this is, you know, this is the approach, and so much more than just the terms, isn’t it? It’s a mindset. It’s a way of thinking working, and, you know, when done in the right spirit, it’s about it’s about you guys, it’s about the people. And this is really about developing you and and making us all successful. But, and again, the importance of that communication with is paramount. It’s such a powerful thing we need to be considerate of. So in my opinion. So you had that first experience with, with Lean Leslie. And yeah, sounds like it was a little bit sideways, as I would call. So again, we’re touching on it. But you know the importance of and your views are in that clear communication. Do you want to just dive into that a little bit? And would you have a specific example of where you have had a negative experience, and then, you know, some of the things you did to actually bring that back around and and realign everyone in a positive way?

Lesley Worthington  15:58

Well, part of the thing is, it’s, it’s partly about communication, and it’s partly about the relationship. So, like, it would have been really nice if, when these people came running in with their, I can do Lean certificates, they took a moment to acknowledge us, maybe learn a couple of names, right? And, you know, and then explain what Lean was. If they it’s like all they cared about was showing how advanced and smart and superior they were or something. And so you have to recognize the people that you’re talking to, right, and you have to really understand who they are and what they know and what would be relevant to them. And if we don’t get that part right, we’re going to miss the mark entirely. And in order to get that part right, we have to have a little bit of a relationship with them. We have to know them a little bit like we have to. So what happens is like and this is something that’s a little bit counter intuitive, but our first impression of Linda, lean Linda and lean Larry was they were losers. Like, I thought first, you don’t even recognize that the people you’re talking to probably haven’t been exposed to this before. So they were like, just they completely missed that and and then they they couldn’t explain it to us. Like, so when someone can’t explain something to you, you start going, Hmm, do you know what you’re talking about? Like, that’s my first thing. When somebody you know, can’t explain something, I thought, I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. So my first impression wasn’t, oh, wow, Linda, you’re fantastic. It was like, oh my god, I think Linda’s incompetent, you know. Like, that was, that’s what happens when we start using these words. I feel like I didn’t quite go in the right direction with that. Andy, remember exactly what you asked, but yes,

Andy Olrich  17:53

maybe just to help you, help you out. There was there a way that you actually lean, Linda and lean. Larry actually came, you know, we through communication, you actually able to get them a bit more seldom, and engage better with the workforce, you know, to recover. Or it was just a, you know,

Lesley Worthington  18:08

yeah, in that, in that case, we were, we were just biding our time to get out of there. We all had a certain amount of time. And then we were just, just because, because that first instance of communication made us go. Don’t trust these people at all. Don’t trust them as far as I can throw them. Don’t want anything to do with this. We didn’t even give them a fighting chance because that first impression so poor. So. But what I would do is, if I was stuck in that situation and I was like, like, I and, and I was 20 years younger then. But if I, if it was me doing this, I would say, What do you mean by lean Linda? Like, that’s what I would do. I would just come out and ask, or, you know, maybe be nice to Linda, probably, but just say, Linda, a lot of us aren’t familiar with that. Can you just fill us in a little bit on basics and and, you know, I think that’s what you got to do. You make you have to make sure that if they’re talking at a different level, that you somehow make them aware. Because they’re obviously not, they’re not responding to what they’re seeing. If you’re looking blank, they’re not catching that like you know, it’s up to that speaker to really get their message across well, but most speaker, a lot of speakers, can’t. So then it’s up to the listener to help them get the message through, and you just do that by asking for clarification, you know, and just letting being honest about what you know. And I think the trouble is we don’t want to, we’re embarrassed, because when people use jargon or buzzwords, we think, Oh, I’m supposed to know that. Like, back then I scurried off to learn what. What is this? Right? I didn’t want to admit because I thought, just as everybody know this, like, Did I miss something somewhere along the way? So, you know, I do always think the responsibility is on the speed. When it comes to communication, but when the speakers fail, it’s on the listener to draw out that what you need from the person to just help them along, really,

Catherine McDonald  20:09

yeah, fully agree. I mean, and that’s, that’s where we are today. That’s how employees and people need to be in the workplace. You know, we all have a responsibility here. But back to your point about the way lean was done back then. And we’ve always heard that lean should never be done to people, but that’s obviously the way you experienced it back then. And hopefully you had better experiences with it since, or I suppose, heard better things about it since this whole, you know your point, and you’ve, you’ve made it a few times this points on jargon and and I guess making things this so obviously, from the trainers or the leaders perspective, it is their responsibility as well to make things understandable to the people that They’re coaching or working with. What do you think helps Leslie, if we were to kind of take the best possible cases out there of trainers and coaches, or from our perspective, mine and Andy a lean practitioner, but what really works well when it comes to particularly communicating around change and improvement in organizations. What have you seen work? Really Well,

Lesley Worthington  21:25

I think really it’s about the trust and about making sure you’ve got trust. And there’s such a connection between communication and trust, as evidenced by my first encounter with lean like if, because if you can be clear, if you can talk about the change that’s coming, or this methodology that you’re introducing in a way that people understand you, all of a sudden, there’s this feeling of transparency. I’m not going to be blindsided by anything. I understand what’s going on. I feel I can ask questions. The problem. One of the problems with jargon or buzzwords is that it creates a distance, and then you don’t the there, the approachability is gone, the accessibility is gone. And so then it, then it becomes difficult for for the message to get through, and it becomes difficult for the if the person doesn’t understand what’s going on, to ask, because the approachability isn’t there because of this distance that comes from this almost like this pompousness that goes along with buzzwords and jargon. So just really focusing on also acknowledging the position of the people who are having whatever is being done to them, right? Like, change is never, is never good humans don’t like change. So just acknowledging, you know, I know this could be tough, or asking for, like, you know, what are your concerns about this impending change. And you know, how can we make this easier for you? Just really, really involving other, the other people that are having the thing done to them, so that they don’t feel that way, so that they feel like they’re part of it, and they feel like they might have a little, a little say or a little control, right? It’s just, it’s this loss of control. I think that’s why we, we resist new things, and you know, we don’t. We’re scared maybe that we won’t understand it, we won’t be able to do it. Maybe we’re scared our jobs now in jeopardy, like, who knows the different fears that come along with change, and so as the the person bringing on the change, or whatever it is you’re doing, I think it’s important to make sure you’re really tuned in to the audience.

Andy Olrich  23:47

I think what I love, not only about this podcast and getting to meet people like you, Leslie and all the other fantastic guests, is this process improvement. World that I, that I live in, is this, you know, we were using lean, as, you know, as an example in this case, around some challenges and what we might be able to do better. But this is, yeah, this really comes down to people and effective change management. Okay, like you, you said the word change three or four times in that last little exchange there. And it is. It’s like if people, if we’re not giving them that chance to have that awareness and desire piece at the start of whatever that change is, and it could be lean, or, as you said, any other thing you’re trying to do, it does go sideways. And there’s, there’s a real fear based lens that gets put on it. So I love it, like it’s, you know, we talk about lean, and we and we touch on the tools and some of the complexities around jargon. But at the end of the day, this, this, this way of thinking and approach is applicable to anything. It’s just great that we can just use this as a vehicle to go, Well, hang on, let’s lift it up a bit. This is really about change, and how we affect people when we do that, and how we need to be conscious of that. So I get really excited when we have this moment where it’s not just this lean. Yeah, that’s we’re zooming out a little bit and going, well, hang on. Actually, when I went to coach the sport team, I just dropped in and got straight to work. Like, hang on. No, why am I here? Who am I? Who are you? Hang on. Let’s just this is this is different. So, yeah,

Lesley Worthington  25:14

thank you for that. That big. Like, the way to get people to, like, buy in and want to be part of this is to link whatever it is you’re introducing to the grander purpose. That’s one thing, like, Why does our company exist? Why are we here? Why do we wake up in the morning and come here? And also to the relevance of that person’s role in the larger purpose? So you got to get those two messages through, and then people will go, oh, okay, I get it. I’m in, right? And like, for the whole idea of, like, let’s say continuous improvement, right? That’s what quality is all about. That’s what Lean is all about. That’s what everything ideally should be all about, including, like, personal development, right? So for the idea of continuous improvement to work, and for it to be like this mindset that’s held by everyone in an organization, people have to feel safe enough to hype up and say something like when they see there’s a way to improve things, or when they see that something’s not quite right, and people are not going to do that if there’s not sufficient trust in the workplace. And they’re maybe they’re maybe they’re worried they’re going to be labeled as a troublemaker, or, in the case of quality, they’re worried they’re going to be accused of slowing things down, and, you know, something like that. So they might be too nervous to speak up. So now innovation and improvement is at risk. You know, it’s not going to happen because people are afraid to speak up, and one of the easiest ways to build that trust is through clear, straightforward communication. So it’s all so interconnected, right? Hello, everyone.

Patrick Adams  26:47

I am sorry to interrupt this episode of the lean solutions podcast, but I wanted to take a moment to invite you to pick up a copy of my shingle, award winning book, avoiding the continuous appearance track in the book, I contrast the cultures of two companies I work for, and though each started with similar lean models, one was mechanistic and only gave the appearance of lean, while the other developed a true culture of continuous improvement. The contrast provides a vivid example of the difference between fake lean and true lean. You can find the book on Amazon simply search by name or the title of the book. You aren’t a reader. No worries, the audio book is also available on Audible now. Back to the show.

Catherine McDonald  27:29

Yeah. And you know what? What strikes me as you were talking Leslie is just this whole skill set, basically that people need. Leaders need to get these changes and improvements across the board and organizations to make sure that people are feeling is safe and trusted, and all these things you mentioned this, this skill set, I guess that you’re talking about emotional intelligence. You’re talking about interpersonal skills, people leadership skills, from your experience, because you’ve probably coached both sides, the people who are going, I guess, the non formal leaders, and then on the other side, the actual leaders who are leading the change. So what do you think needs to happen in organizations for these skills? I guess on both sides really, because it’s not just leaders who need these it’s everybody who needs these skills to be able to communicate better. How do we improve communication skills right across the organization? Do you think? Yeah,

Lesley Worthington  28:27

well, to be to be fair, most of the people I work with are in the middle. I don’t really do a lot of, like, top, top leaders. I’m working with, usually quality leaders, like, as high as they can be in the quality area, and they’re trying to get to the leadership table, because, for some reason, the top leaders have included in that quality needs to be there. So the number one thing I think that everybody needs when it comes to communication is they the ability to figure out how to influence people. And once they realize that it’s actually a pretty strategic, logical, systematic kind of thing, they’re like, Oh, my God. I thought I had to, like, have a different personality or something, and become really and start networking. And it’s like, no, it is very like, it’s very strategic. It’s about sort of understanding your organization, right? So no matter where you are in the organization, it’s about understanding the relationships of all the people in the organization, and figuring out, and I’m going to use a buzzword here, figuring out how to leverage, how to leverage the different relationships, to make sure the messages go where they need to go and get received the way they need to get received. So I honestly don’t think there’s much difference between how you would sort of coach someone who’s literally on the shop floor with someone who’s in the corner office. It’s like you have to think of your audience. You have to know what your purpose. Is of a meeting or an email or a phone call, whatever, and you have to use words the audience knows that’s the end. Like, it’s like audience purpose, and speaking away, they they understand. And when you break it down like that, people go, Oh, okay, I guess it is that straightforward, but, but, you know, we just don’t take the time to do that, or we just maybe our emotional intelligence isn’t there yet. A lot of people think there’s like, you know, soft skills, lottery or something, you either got it or you don’t. And it’s like, I don’t believe that. I do not believe that. I believe it’s a skill. I believe the people who have great soft skills, who are good communicators, great emotional intelligence, intelligence, just had more exposure and more practice, you know,

30:51

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy Olrich  30:53

I don’t know about you, Catherine, but I’m sitting here just when you were talking through that. How simple. You know, it’s this, this and this, but just reflecting on some moments where one in particular, where I had a leader that was quite resistive to anything to do with the word lean, or that some of the things that I was trying to help bring into the organization. And I said, Right, okay, you’ve got, you’ve got two minutes. I want you to tell me all about this stuff and go. I need you to convince me in two minutes that this is worth it. And I absolutely fire hosed this guy. Hit him with everything. I was like, Oh, it’s my shot, and I’m so passionate about it. And I just, I hadn’t even really got past hello in the first minute, right? I was just, really just, and, yeah, it was very hard in the moment. And I totally, and I still do to this day, is get some coaching around. Yeah, hang on. How do you just get a break it down into those simple steps? It’s absolutely a skill and and again, just touching in around that, that whole change management piece. So I’ve got a wonderful change manager where I am now. Hello, Lenore, if you’re listening her. And her and I have these continual moments where, like, Ah, well, if you just swap that word out for that, we’re kind of, we’re doing the same thing, so trying to, and that happens again with the quality people. That happens with, you know, anyone there? So we’re all kind of trying to get to the same place. How can we all effectively break this messaging down and then we go in together and say, Look, this is actually a united front, Andy’s got some jargon there that he’s promised to maybe leave out until we get some more training. You know that everyone loves an acronym, doesn’t? You know whatever you use is always a tool or an acronym or something fancy that people want to hand over. So I I just like the way that you’ve put that, but I still find it tough sometimes if I get excited in the moment where I’m fearful that they’re going to shoot me down if I get one word wrong, you know, yeah, and that

Lesley Worthington  32:45

plain language is the common language, so the plain language heading toward the shared goals, that’s it. That’s how you become a team. And yeah, in your little silos, go crazy. Talk about lean over here, talk about quality over there, whatever. But just know that you can’t talk like that if you want to actually have conversations where you’re coming together with people outside of your little silo and just that awareness. It really honestly, I tell people, like, coaching is about awareness and intention, just start paying more attention. Just like, slow down for a second, reflect for a second. Like, don’t even if you’re having a casual hallway chat for people who still go into the office, like, plan it. Don’t have anything casual, know. Like, what do I want to happen here? Because, like, maybe all you want to have happen is I want to connect with this person. I’m not even going to talk about work. I just want to try and connect this person. I’m going to talk about the fact that I have cats, because I think she has cats too, you know, and that’s the purpose of the conversation. So just like breaking breaking it down, so that you’re very, very intentional about what you’re trying to do, like maybe that cat person in the hallway, you do have long range plans to get this person to help you with some conversation with the CEO or something later. That’s fine, but like, break it down so you have a plan for how you’re going to ultimately get to your goal.

Catherine McDonald  34:13

Yeah, it’s, it’s so, yeah, there’s so much involved in that I think there’s, there’s the skills part, and then there’s the culture part, which is what you know, you’re kind of combining there, and I think probably both come together to form effective communication practices. And then you’ve obviously got the senior leadership practices from the very top in terms of the goals, the vision, aligning people, and the way that’s all done, and the language that’s used and used consistently. You know, when people are together, like you said, especially when you bring cross functions together, that there’s this shared understanding with a common language, it’s so important. It’s really, really important, for sure. So Leslie, then, would you? Would you have any other tips for for example. So I coach as well, and I understand the struggles that people have. I we it is simple in terms of the concepts and the understanding about how you do this, and you’re right. It’s, it’s strategic. There is a strategy. You break it down, but it can be so difficult for people to improve their communication skills. Um, they really, really struggle. Sometimes they struggle to, I guess, manage their emotions is a huge one, because so much of the conflict in organizations is around that just people flying off the handle. Something triggers them. They react to somebody, and suddenly there’s a conflict there. And you spoke about trust and psychological safety, it only takes seconds to break all of that once someone flies off the handle. So the way person personally personal development is huge. Here your personal development affects your professional development. So really, there needs to be this understanding among everybody, leaders, people and non formal leaders. Everybody needs to understand that they have a responsibility to work on their own, emotional intelligence, communication skills, conflict management, and obviously, as coaches, we help from the outside. But what do you think organizations can do to help people with these kinds of skills within the organization? How can we build it into our strategy. Do you think because it’s so important?

Lesley Worthington  36:23

Yeah, I want to just pick up on the fact that simple does not always mean easy. People get, oh, it’s not easy. It’s like, I know. I didn’t say it was easy. I said it’s simple. You can break it down. So because, because so much of this is that emotional intelligence bit and the relationship bit, I think that organizations need to make more of an effort overall to provide opportunities for people to be human at work. I think a lot like we need permission to show up as humans, and I think that leadership needs to come from the top on that. So the leaders need to sort of model this kind of behavior. Because, well, you know what happens like as soon as the emotional part of our brain gets hijacked, all logic has gone out the window. All masterful planning that we did about this conversation is now gone. But, you know, you can maybe give permission to people like I would as as an organization, I would be providing just internal training for communication training and, you know, letting people know that an option is to walk away from a conversation that just went sideways, regroup, come back later. Like most people don’t feel they can do that, maybe, if they had permission to do that, even with a supervisor, maybe that could change things, that people could feel a little more in control. But I think probably the it’s probably all about modeling and and being, you know, psychologically safe and all of that stuff, and providing opportunities for people from different departments and different silos to know each other as humans. So providing some sort of opportunities, some social things, whatever, that people can know people as people, and not just as the quality director or as whatever, because I think that makes a huge difference. Because when you fly off the handle at people, you’re you, you’ve stopped being people you know somehow or other, and it’s like, maybe you never knew that person. So it’s easier to treat them as a non person if you never really knew them, and

Catherine McDonald  38:42

and Andy, so you’ve obviously, you’re obviously in a lot of organizations and led on a lot of Lean efforts as well. So I mean, we do see the need for communications training. Do you think it would make a difference, or are there other initiatives that you’ve seen that work really well to help us all with our communication when it comes to getting lean improvements, continuous improvement across the line. What do you think, absolutely,

Andy Olrich  39:11

and sort of touching on that point around, you know, it might be the thing at the time that we’re, you know, we’re bringing in all that change. We’re just trying to align everyone. But, yeah, absolutely. Catherine recommend some training. There’s three key areas that I’ve found quite helpful, especially now that I’m coaching and doing more of a strategic implementation view for my role is around, definitely communication skills, and that could be, you know, in person, or how to write a very good email, even, you know, just a good, punchy headline, those those things, or how to, you know, be succinct in your communications. The other one is absolutely emotional intelligence like that is something that I found quite helpful. It’s just just to sort of in the moment go, Well, hang on, I recognize that I’m doing this and how this may potentially. Have a negative impact. So that’s the second one. The third one is, again, we talked about the silos and things, and I’m a big fan of systems thinking. So again, understanding where in this, having that training and awareness that, okay, look, yeah, you’re probably like lean for a lot of people. Well, I kind of actually know that, but just trying to pull that all together, to go, Look, we are part of a broader ecosystem here. And you know, this can be something that written can really galvanize that system, but you just got to know where you fit in, and as we touched on earlier, where you’re coming from. So absolutely, as he’s retired now, but I always love the saying. Someone said, it’s like even Roger Federer has a coach, right? So you can be the greatest at whatever. Yeah, don’t underestimate the power of just having, no matter what you’re doing, lifelong learner, all those sorts of things. But, and at the end of the day, it boils down to, you know, we say it’s, it’s three simple things to do, but it’s the guiding principle for me that got me on the hook with this is it’s about respect for people so and again, respecting the person gives them some good training, gives them coaching, you know, calling them out when they’re, you know, maybe too excited and they’re, they’re blasting them with jargon and terms that these this other group of people are like, either, oh, here we go again. Or, like you said this, Larry, you’re a loser. Like, who is this person telling me how to live my life. So longer answer, but yeah, really, yeah, lift yourself up and get some of those more human centric type skills and approaches bedded in. I’ve found that extremely helpful. So yeah, I appreciate you asking me that, and keen to hear what you think. Yeah, absolutely.

Catherine McDonald  41:36

Yeah, no, I think you’re spot on. And the other thing which we haven’t mentioned, which actually Leslie, it’d be good to get your thoughts on is, is feedback and feedback loops, because how do we know if our communication needs work or doesn’t need work if we’re not asking for feedback? So how you mean this is not something I find organizations are very good at. I know I’m speaking generally, but we’re not very good at going out there, speaking to people directly and giving them constructive feedback, and we’re not very good at taking feedback, because we sometimes, often take it as as an insult. So I think that’s where this whole conversation about communication training and coaching and giving people the skills to be able to do these things, but really matters, really, really, not as if we’re to move forward as people and develop people, develop ourselves and develop others, but develop the organization. It won’t work unless we are open and honest with each other and can give feedback and and take feedback. So would that be something Leslie, that you’ve seen as well in terms of the need out there?

Lesley Worthington  42:41

Yeah, I think so what I see a lot is that people just avoid conversations. It’s not that they try to give feedback and it’s a disaster. They just avoid it all together. I’m like, Whoa. So I think, like when Andy was talking, I was thinking, Yes, I think, like, in terms of, like, any internal training, just zeroing in on specific skills, like, make it small. I mean, the problem with communication is that it’s big. Like, people come to me like, like, I think half the time people don’t come to me because they don’t know, like, how could she help? Communication is like, that’s life, right? That’s like, less, right? And so make it small. It’s like, okay, we’re going to train people how to receive feedback, not even give, just receive, because that is hard to do, right? Okay? And now another time, we’re going to train people how to give feedback, we’re going to try to give feedback to someone who’s above us, and we’re going to give feedback to someone who’s below us. So again, we’re just breaking it down, because all of these things have different feels to them. It’s all about how we make people feel right. So I think it’s worth because the feedback part is such critical in a continuous improvement environment like it is critical. So that is probably, I would say that is probably the listening and feedback, which go hand in hand. Really are probably the one and two skills that you would need to equip your people, I think,

Catherine McDonald  44:12

and just picking up on what you said there about the break in the skills down, I think one of the biggest mistakes I see is this idea of training. Oh, training. Let’s do our communications training in January, January. Oh, no. Then what happens for the rest of the year? No training. We’ll wait till next January. We’ll do it. We’ll repeat the same communications because we got good feedback on that last year. That’s not the way it works. It has to be continuous. You know, month by month, we have to take what’s out there and available to us now in terms of micro learning. Yeah, and you know, how can we continuously, every month, provide coaching and training to people in their own time in ways that are easy on all of these communication and not just communication, but everything. But this is, this is where we need to. Oh, because all of those resources are out there now and available to us. So I think it’s the mindset as well of the people running the organization in terms of how what they think training is that really has to change as well, for sure,

Lesley Worthington  45:14

and that that’s a common with quality people. That’s a really common a common problem is that training is a tick box exercise, because the regulations, or the standard requires training. So they do the training so they can tick the box, but it’s like, Well, did you check if the training worked, actually? And so training is another form of communication as well, right? And most of the time the training is not working, because maybe it’s not at the right level for the audience or whatever, whatever it is, but yeah, one of my most effective tools that I have with my clients, which is also the most, most ridiculously simple thing you can imagine, is literally a form with a few columns in it where you’re taking notes, literally taking notes. Carry it around with you. What went well, what didn’t go well, what might have why, you know what? Why this one? And this is when you start seeing patterns. Now, imagine if everybody did that at an organization, and, you know, they sort of regroup with themselves, they look at their their form at the end of the week, and they go, Wow, I keep having problems with this sort of conversation, or I keep having problems with this sort of person, like, maybe someone realizes, when they do that, that they really struggle with conversations with, you know, 55 year old men, like, you know, older men. It’s a younger woman, she struggles with that. And when you start to see where your little quirks and hang ups are, then it’s so easy to figure out how to fix it. Well, not necessarily easy to fix it. Easy to, like, start working on it. It’s like, now I know what I need to work on. It’s not like I get nervous in front of everybody and get tongue tied. It’s only certain people that make me feel like I’m a complete loser and I’m incompetent and I don’t know anything. Huh? Do I need my work? Do I need to build a relationship with this person? Like, what do I need to do to feel better in those conversations? And all of that is, is possible through the sort of reflective note taking sort of idea. And so if I was a leader in an organization, I’d be getting my team to do that, because it’s very enlightening, really. Yeah,

Catherine McDonald  47:20

and the any last, any final words before we have to finish up, any questions for Leslie before we go?

Andy Olrich  47:29

Oh, look, there’s a comment just around. You know, the conversation has been fantastic, and I just think again, we touched on it right at the start. Was around that clarity on the purpose, and where are we now, and who are you? Like those things. Speaking of the coaching, I totally agree, like there’s a training component, and then there’s the coaching, ongoing support, so that, you know, 70% of the learning is on the job with that, you know, opportunity for the feedback, just one little thing, Greg, who I get some communications coaching from, at the moment, he’s got a really effective activity that helps me. It’s just to get one little post it and just write the words, think, feel, do, on there, and I need to. It’s only it can fit on the post it. But when I’m going to have a conversation or engage with somebody, it’s like, okay, what I want them to at the end of this? What I want them to think? What do I want them to feel? And then what do I want them to do when it’s done. And it can be hard to put that on there, but I find that’s a really good activity, like you said, plan your conversations. I just throw that in there for something that that’s helped me out as just yet, and

Lesley Worthington  48:33

always stealing that, stealing that, I think that’s excellent, because it gets, it’s it’s clarity, but also very, very simple, and it makes you zero in on just, just the things, because that’s really, that’s really all that matters in that conversation, like, what, you know, what, what’s, what outcome do I want in those three things, right?

Andy Olrich  48:52

Yeah. And the last thing is, I would love to chat to you more. Leslie, I bet you’ve got some cracking stories of, you know, like, really, under the surface of where, you know, you’ve seen some things that even to this day, be like, Oh, wow, that was really good or really, really, really bad, but look, I’ll leave it there. Thank you very much, Catherine, I’ll throw it back to you, but I’ve had a great time, Leslie, and yeah, really appreciated you coming on and sharing your expertise.

Lesley Worthington  49:15

Thanks so much. Enjoyed it. And

Catherine McDonald  49:17

likewise, Leslie, so if people want to reach out to you, Leslie, to understand more about what you do, more about your coaching practices. Where can they find you? Please tell us just

Lesley Worthington  49:28

LinkedIn. Leslie Worthington on LinkedIn, and I’m there. I’m pretty responsive most of the time. Yeah, so

Catherine McDonald  49:35

and I will, I will say your posts are amazing, and if anybody’s listening, they really should follow you, especially anybody who’s working in the field of quality or in communications, because your posts really are so real. There’s you. Your posts are just like our conversation today and the points that you made. There is no fluff, there is no jargon. You say it as it is. You’re you know so many. Posts and social media these days are full of AI. You know, you can tell you’re written by chat. GPT, people’s comments are the same. Your posts are real, your comments are real, and you’re just a great connection to have on LinkedIn, from my perspective as well, and I really value that as well, as well as our conversation today. So Leslie, thank you so much for all your insights. Andy, great to see you as always, and we will leave it there. Thank you, folks, and have a good evening.

Andy Olrich  50:26

Thanks a lot. Thank you.

Patrick Adams  50:29

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the lean solutions podcast. If you haven’t done so already, please be sure to subscribe this way. You’ll get updates as new episodes become available. If you feel so inclined, please give us a review. Thank you so much.