Patrick Adams  00:00

Welcome to the Lean solutions podcast. This is the podcast that adds value to leaders by helping you improve performance using process improvement solutions with bottom line results. My name is Patrick Adams, and this season, I’ll be joined by three other amazing hosts, including Catherine O’Donnell from Ireland, Andy Ulrich from Australia and Shane got involved from the United States. Join us as we bring you guests and experiences of Lean practitioners from all over the world. All right, I think we are live out on LinkedIn and Facebook land. Hopefully this this episode is live in the right places. It’s always a little clunky, just because of the connection with the third party, stream yard and LinkedIn. So I apologize if we are not live in the right place, but I know we’re live somewhere out there, somewhere LinkedIn land and Facebook land. So welcome everybody. As you come in, please let us know in the comments where in the world you are at. We’d love to welcome you in onto this episode of the lean solutions podcast, live 2025 and we’re excited it’s going to be a great year. So we’re just giving everybody a few minutes here to log on, and then we will do some intros and kind of get started into the topic of, is lean still relevant in 2025 that’s what we’ll be talking about. Is lean still relevant in 2025 the we’ll talk. We have some great questions. We’re going to pull the audience. It’s going to be a really, really fun time. So I’m I’m looking forward to it. So again, welcome everybody. If you are logging on, please drop your location in the comments. Let us know where in the world that you are from. Say hello in the comments. We’d love to to take a moment to welcome you and and also maybe ask you a few questions. So we’ll, we’ll see how that goes today. Well, let’s, let’s go around the room here and just do a quick intro with maybe a little bit of an icebreaker to get to know our our hosts of the lean solutions podcast. Those of you that are new to the Lean solutions podcast, I will just let you know that as of 2024 we change things up a little bit. So prior to 2024 we had one host, and it was me, and I got lonely. I needed a I needed some friends. So I invited, so I invited a few others from around the world to join me in 2024 and I will say, I think it’s been a blast. I’ve had a ton of fun and got to know these guys on a deeper level, and had some really, really good, great guests in 2024 we shared some of those stats in our last episode, but this time we wanted to go live and kind of kick off 2025 in style with a live episode. So here we are together, and let me just take a moment and introduce our host then. So Shane is from Nebraska, and Shane the icebreaker question that I have for you is, what is your favorite food? What is your favorite food,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  03:39

either hamburgers or pasta, okay, just gonna say hamburgers, very vague, you know, any form or shape of I just love to stuff it in my face. I’m not a picky eater.

Patrick Adams  03:50

Okay, all right. I like it. I like it. What if you have them both together? Would you? Would you do that? Would you do

Shayne Daughenbaugh  03:56

that? Would be amazing. A hamburger. Totally. Yes, yes. Yes. Okay, good. I would put, I would put Alfredo on my burger and eat it that way. Probably eat it with a fork, but I would do that. Love it.

Patrick Adams  04:13

Shane, can you just tell our audience a little bit, just a short, little glimpse of your background,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  04:21

sure, a short glimpse of my background, I would I’ve been a pastor, I’ve been a operations director, and I’ve worked for the state of Nebraska, and now I’m on an entrepreneur. That’s a big word to say today. Love it.

Patrick Adams  04:36

Well, you’ve been a great addition to the Lean solutions podcast, and love having you on the show. Shane, I’m excited for 2025 it’s going to be, it’s going to be a great year. If you are just logging on, I’ll just ask you to drop your location. Where in the world are you listening in from? Drop that in the comments. And we’d love to just kind of see where everybody’s. I see Hesse on Good to see you in in Kansas, we have Scott from Iowa, Lynn from Iowa as well. So welcome, welcome, and we’re excited to see you. So go ahead and drop everyone else. Drop a comment and let us know where you are. Let’s go to Andy. So Andy is from Australia, from Down Under. Hello Andy.

Andy Olrich  05:27

Good night. Hey, going it’s

Patrick Adams  05:29

going good. So my, my icebreaker question for you is, what’s your favorite book? What would you say is your favorite book that you’ve ever read? Could be audio, could be any, any book at all you picked? Yeah,

Andy Olrich  05:43

it’s a bit of a tough one. I got a couple of favorites, but I think there was a book I read when I was a little bit younger than I am now, and it was a book called a fortunate life by A B faci, and it’s a, it’s a, not a, not a big book, but it’s about a young guy growing up in Australia in the early 1900s and sort of rolls through some of the challenges he had, and working out in the in the bush as a Jackaroo and all sorts of things. So but it just was a really nice story about seeing the positives in challenges and rising through them. So I always look back at that book, and I think that was one that really was good for me to read at the time. So I’ll end with that one. Love

Patrick Adams  06:25

it. That’s great. I might have to pick that up. That’s a good book. It sounds like a good book. I’ve never read it, but it sounds good. Okay, let and Andy, can you give the audience just a little bit of your background?

Andy Olrich  06:39

Yeah, sure. So I started out in a trade background, and then I’ve worked in various maintenance and operational roles, and then I was fortunate enough to get some lean and Lean Six Sigma training and qualifications, and I’ve moved through then into to make that my day job. And I really enjoy the people side of that. And yeah, here I am talking to you guys. So that’s, that’s a speed dive version of how I got where I am.

Patrick Adams  07:04

Love it. Love it. I always love your examples that you bring to the show. So appreciate you being on Andy once again. Just kind of going back to our audience here, I see Fayaz from Dubai, Chris from England. So we have a number of people that are logging in from around the world. Great to see all of you, if you’re just coming on, say hello in the comments. Drop a drop a comment. Just let us know where in the world that you are at. We’d love to see see that in the comments. Also like and share this. Share this out so the rest of your network can can jump on we’re talking about the relevance of lean in 2025 whether or not it’s relevant. So we’ll be talking about that here in just a minute, just letting people log on and kind of going around the room, introducing some of our hosts for 2025 so let’s go to Catherine in Ireland. So Catherine, my icebreaker question for you is, do you prefer cats or dogs?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  08:06

There is a right or wrong answer with this,

CATHERINE MCDONALD  08:10

because I prefer dogs, but I have a cat. I don’t like the work that comes with dogs at this point in life. So I have a cat. She’s lovely.

Patrick Adams  08:19

Oh, nice. What’s that? What’s your cat’s name? Millie. Millie, all right. I like it. That’s great. Catherine, do you mind telling the audience a little bit about your background?

CATHERINE MCDONALD  08:29

Yes. So my background, I worked in the nonprofit and the service sector for a good many years before I went back and retrained as an organization behavior consultant, and then kind of found out about Lean, went and trained in lean, and now I own a business called MCD consulting, and I’m a lean business organizational behavior and leadership coach. And yeah, so that’s me. Love it. It’s my

Shayne Daughenbaugh  08:56

whole portfolio. Yes,

Patrick Adams  09:01

we have a wide range of experiences in the room, so that’s that’s always good all the different examples from different industries that all of us have had experience in, and just being able to relate some of those examples back to the the concepts that we talk about on the show is is is always fun to hear. And, you know, enjoy so well. Let’s dive into the topic, everybody. So again, if, if everyone is would like to comment, and we’re watching the comments, so if you have questions, if you want to add to the discussion, throw it in the comments. And we, you know, we’d love to read those and, you know, answer them, if possible. We’ll do our best. But we’re going to be talking today. The topic is, is lean relevant in 2025 so I came across this, this survey that industry. Imagined, put out industry reimagine 2030 surveyed small, medium and large manufacturers and prepared the state of lean manufacturing report. And inside the report, it reads that 30% of manufacturers achieved competitive advantage and eight and average 80% gains in productivity by applying lean concepts in their business, an additional 28% achieved significant gains, averaging 40% overall, 95% of the businesses that were surveyed gained at least 20% or had at least 20% in gains that they reported. So I think those are some pretty great statistics when we think about Lean and, you know, applying lean concepts methodology, developing a Lean culture within an organization. I mean, that’s pretty awesome. Those are some great some great numbers. What do you guys think

Andy Olrich  10:58

sounds about? Right? And

CATHERINE MCDONALD  11:03

disappointed. It’s just manufacturing as always. You know, in every other Why is it always manufacturing? We still don’t understand the benefits that lean can have because there’s not enough research being done on the other side. So great to hear about the manufacturing, but I want others, you know that is where

Shayne Daughenbaugh  11:23

the government point, where the service transaction, you know, organizations, where are the nonprofits? Yes, you know that that do a lot of lean. I mean, they’re, they’re out there again, we just don’t have the, yeah, the research for it. But I think that you would, you might find very similar

Patrick Adams  11:43

results, yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe, maybe higher even it would be not. It would be nice to see some of those reports as well, and we’re going to talk a little bit about that today as we get into, you know, lean and its relevance in 2025 I mean, lean has been a, you know, a cornerstone of continuous improvement for for decades. And the reason why this topic, I think, is so important, not just in manufacturing, as you guys pointed out, for all industries, is because things are changing rapidly right now, all of these technical, technological improvements, advancements that are happening are happening so fast. You know, with automation, AI just this, everything digital is just transforming the landscape so quickly. And so the question, it begs the question, right, is lean still going to be relevant? Are we still going to need lean in the future. And so I want to, I guess, just kind of start with a poll. I think it would be good for us to, you know, pull the audience here and kind of see what we come up with. We’re going to, we’re going to try to do this, see how it works out here. But we do have a it’s in mentee.com so if you on your cell phone, on your laptop, if you go to menti.com and you use the code, 68012991, and we’re going to leave this, this poll open even after this episode airs, or, I guess after the live is completed, we’re going to go in and just leave this open so you can continue. Even if you’re listening to the re record on this, you can go in and join in the poll, but go to menti.com use code 68, 012991, and let us know which of these challenges. What are the top challenges? Which one of these would you say is a would you say is bigger than the rest? What’s going to be the number one top challenge for Lean In 2025 we have integration of AI and lean practices, sustainability of Lean practices, expanding lean into non manufacturing sectors and lean in hybrid workplaces. Those are kind of the when we when we went out and Googled top challenges for Lean. These were the top four that popped up. So, so we will leave that poll open again. It’s It’s mentee.com code, 6801291991, and we’ll come back to that here in just a little bit, but we’re going to leave that, leave that up for now, and we’ll come back to it. So what do you guys think? I mean, Shane, what are your thoughts on top challenges for Lean In 2025 Do you see it? One listed here that you would say is going to give us some work

Shayne Daughenbaugh  14:42

like the definitely the issues the AI integration of AI, think that’s just going to be that’s just everywhere. It’s just a given. We need to accept it and figure out how we’re going to be able to use it in Lean and it’s fun to watch that kind of you. Um, technology edge that we’re at right now, and how people are like, Oh, hey, we could use it to do this and this. And, and there’s all kinds of attempts at trying to make it work. You know, let’s use Lean to brain, or let’s use AI to brainstorm how we can fix this. And, and some of them just fail miserably. But as I’ve often said, it’s okay to have bad ideas, because it’s on those bad ideas that we stand up good ideas. So I’m, I am. I’m leaning for that first one that doesn’t have all the votes come on people like, that’s going to be a big challenge. I want to see more on there. Yeah,

Patrick Adams  15:32

no, I definitely agree. I mean, AI again. AI is, it’s things are happening so fast, it’s hard to even keep up with with all of the advancements in AI, and it does, you know, make me wonder, like, how, how can we best integrate lean with all of these different AI platforms that are, that are coming available. So that’s definitely one that that will dive into here during the the hour that we’re live. Andy, what do you think out of these, out of this list, any stand out to you as being a real challenge in 2025

Andy Olrich  16:08

sustainability of Lean practices? I know that’s, that’s, we say it’s one of the hardest things to do. I think that one and the, obviously, the the hybrid challenge, that’s that’s still around, although a lot of coming back to work. But yeah, how do we sustain what we’ve done? There’s a bit of churn in some industries, yeah. How do we keep that momentum and keep people on the, you know, the discipline, with just the basics? So I yeah, I really see that, seeing it down here quite a bit in Australia, it’s especially as we’ve gone into COVID, we’ve gone into this hybrid space, and now we’re coming back into the more physical space. There’s things that are having to sort of be tweaked again. So yeah, I really think that one is, is a standout, yeah, yeah. I

Patrick Adams  16:52

agree it. And it looks like as of right now, the audience would agree that sustainability of lead lean practices in 2025 is kind of leading the charge here with our our poll of the audience. If you’re just logging on, go to menti.com and use code 68012991, and that will bring you into this poll. We’re just wondering, what are the top challenges for Lean now, if you think there’s a different challenge in 2025 drop it in the comments. We’d love to to, you know, read that out loud and talk, discuss it as well. So the these are the top four that we have on the poll right now. We’re top four that came off through Google. AI told us, you know, basically, these are ones that we want to look out for, and in 2025 so please, we encourage you to use the poll. We’d love to see what happens there. Also, I love, love seeing some of the the comments that are coming in from different places around the world. So please, if you’re logging on, drop a comment. Let us know where you’re at in the world. I see we have a someone from Almaty Kazakhstan on so that’s pretty cool England and Dubai and all across the US. So that’s that’s really cool to see as well. Catherine, what are your thoughts on these four here? Any one, one that stands out for you?

CATHERINE MCDONALD  18:18

Just a question. When you, when you say sustainability of Lean practices, does that mean the whole, you know, control aspect of, once you, you know, embed lean, it’s the kind of, yeah, making it work and making it stick. Is that what you’re talking about?

Patrick Adams  18:33

That’s right, yeah. So, so I it is the sustainability of Lean practices. So once deployed into an organization, is it? You know, we say in the US, flavor of the month, right? Something different every month, and nothing sticks, but in 2025 one of the top challenges, you know, will lean stick? Will we have long term sustainability? Okay,

CATHERINE MCDONALD  18:57

well, that’s been a challenge for years, but it’s definitely an ongoing challenge. I think the AI will be a challenge. For me. It’s so unclear how you how people are using AI. Every company knows a little bit about it, not a lot. If we are practicing lean in 2025 we want to use AI, but we don’t know how. There’s no rules, there’s going to be a lot of messing, even more waste when it comes to trying to use AI. So I think that’s a I think it’s the top challenge, because there’s the most unknown around it. And that would be my view. I think, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Patrick Adams  19:36

no, that’s it. That’s a really, really good point, and I agree with, with everyone. So it’s, it’s interesting to see, you know, with the audience, you know, as as some of those, those polls are coming in, it’s interesting to see that, obviously, you know, all of these are going to be challenges in 2025 so, so these are, and there’s others, right? Has some just listed. Another one in the comments. You said, another. Challenge is still lack of awareness, still running into many folks who don’t have a whole lot of ideas about Lean benefits and advantages. It’s so true, even just the education of applying lean properly in the right way and the benefits that can come from that. I mean, that’s a key that’s always been a challenge, right? Would you guys agree?

Andy Olrich  20:22

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah. And then that’s where the the deployment for mine is so important, and getting the clarity up front, around what it is and what it isn’t, I think, and yeah, that if it’s, if it’s not clear, or it’s it’s done to people, those things that we’ve talked about a bit on the podcast, it does go sideways. And that awareness is, yeah, it can be, can be skewed from the start, or it can be lost as more and more people come in with different persuasions. So yeah, I think that’s a really good point. And

Shayne Daughenbaugh  20:50

I’m curious, you know, how many of our of our business schools are teaching the lead as part of getting a business degree, like, not just a, Hey, these are some, you know, extra classes. You could get some electives if you want. But, you know, a, I would think if I’m, if I have a business college, I would want my people, my graduates, to be the most successful they can so I would be giving them the most, you know, the best tools that they have out there to be able to do it, you know, and, and I don’t have, you know, many, very many data points, but I’m just curious as to, especially the smaller colleges, the community colleges that are looking for that little bit of an edge over, you know, the big Ivy League business schools, Harvard and Princeton in Stanford, and whoever else might be out there. Are they? Are they teaching this again? It speaks to that point of the lack of awareness, like, do our people that are coming up, or to the young people that are coming up into business and wanting to run businesses? Do they have this knowledge? I don’t know yet. I’d be interested to, you know, to find out how many, how many do?

Patrick Adams  22:03

Yeah, that’s an interesting question. And I would, I would even, you know, go as far as to say, Well, so, so in on the business side, is what you’re asking. I know there are universities that obviously teach it in engineering, you know, supply chain engineering, but definitely like business would, would that would benefit any business students. But I was going to say I would even go as far as to push it to high schools. I mean, think about, you know, if, if high schoolers and middle schoolers were learning about these concepts early on, and then could apply that, you know, later in life. Again, lean is applicable in any industry, in any career, any place in the world, right? So there’s definitely that opportunity there, and more and more schools should definitely jump on board with that. I would say, Okay, let’s I’m gonna remove this poll for now, and let’s go. Let’s go back to the conversation here. Funny. Christopher Westall, he made a comment or asked the question is, is there still waste? Right? I think this kind of goes along with one of your thoughts. Shane around the question of relevance. Lean relevance. What right you wanna right? I’m

Shayne Daughenbaugh  23:23

just gonna tell you right now that waste is trendy now, you know, I mean, let’s not try to eliminate all what? It’s clearly a hallmark of modern office culture, you know. And to think about it, waste is adaptive. It teaches you resilience, you know. Just think about how many employees have to grow stronger, you know, finding workarounds for these inefficient and complex, you know, systems that they have. I mean, it’s true, eliminating waste may reduce stress and increase capacity, but, you know, really, who wants that? You know, stress keeps everyone on their toes. Stress is how I build muscles. So I’m just thinking, you know, waste is training now 2025 it’s going to be a wasteful year. Let’s take it.

CATHERINE MCDONALD  24:14

It’s the language shame. Do you think that? Because, actually, I don’t use the word waste a lot, because when I worked in nonprofit, starting out, they did not like the word like, I worked with people doing frontline work, and if I went in looking for waste, that was me telling them they were wasting their time and they didn’t like it’s all. Tend not to to use the word waste. I use the word noise sometimes, which people tend to prefer, because they can accept that there’s noise, you know, distractions, to get rid of. What do you think? Do you think the language is a barrier?

Patrick Adams  24:50

I think, yeah, I think it, well, it depends. I mean, it depends on how it’s communicated. For sure, I think for. Are organizations that have adopted lean as their continuous improvement methodology. I mean, if they’re developing a culture of continuous improvement, you know, and they’ve taught it as waste or the seven waste, the eight waste, then it makes sense to people, right? But for many organizations that are learning about process improvement or lean for the first time, understanding what, what is the right language that that connects with people. You know, we’ve talked about this before on the show, but sometimes, some companies don’t want to use words that are associated with traditional lean because maybe they’ve had bad experiences in the past. So, you know, understanding and knowing your audience and meeting them where they are, I think, is super important, right? If noise makes more sense, yes, yes,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  25:51

exactly I was going to say. So it’s super important. So is giving language to hang ideas on, you know? And I think waste gives you that, but you’re right. It does have, especially for in my culture, like when I was doing continuous improvement at the state of Nebraska, I had to have a good 1520 minutes on what waste means, because they think of waste as something that you just, you know, throw away. So when we’re talking about process waste. In the process, we’re basically telling them, Hey, your process is trash. What you do is trash, and that is totally not where you’re going with so I love, I love what you’re where you’re going with, that Catherine in having a a handle to hang ideas on that makes sense for the people that you’re working with, absolutely

Andy Olrich  26:40

and I just to, just to add to that, if I may, I think that’s where, you know, we’re talking about change and how we apply change in an organization. One of the biggest things, I think, is finding that what’s in it for me and and pointing if we’re bringing in Lean, or we’re getting, you know, new newcomers, to get connected to what everyone else is doing is, yeah, it’s really getting clarity and and pointing it at the pain you know, what frustrates you and your work, and getting that connection between what the value of the thinking and the ways of working and the leadership styles that lean provides, connecting that. But, like you said, things to hang ideas honestly, well, I don’t want I’ve done lean at this place before, and I don’t like it, but, gee, this over here is really kicking my butt, and it’s trying to get that connectivity with what it means for them and what’s in it for them. Because I think just as humans, we just unless there’s something in it for us really that we can connect to, we might give it a go out of compliance, or we might actually go, oh, is this actually a way out of this? And everyone’s going to help me do that. Okay? Well, that’s maybe I am on board. So I definitely think when we get back to that, you know, why the why? Why are we even doing this, and how can we use it to make ourselves more successful? And Ryan teas commented about, it’s, you know, in the session we had with him, was around, it’s about developing people, and it’s not about the tools. So, yeah, there’s a that’s where it comes back to that foundational philosophy piece that I’m really passionate about, yeah, yes, change. That’s

Patrick Adams  28:05

actually leads me into my first question that I want to pose to us and also to our audience, who’s listening in, by the way, if you haven’t, if you’re listening in and you haven’t dropped your the country or your state, wherever you’re at in the world. Drop that in the comments so we can see where you’re from in the world. And if you want to involve yourself in the conversation, we’d love to to please, you know, post a comment or a question, pose a question about the topic. Is lean still relevant in 2025 we’d love to engage with you, and we can do that right through the comments. So the question that I have is, what are the biggest challenges to Lean’s relevance in today’s Tech driven world, specifically talking about digital tools. And you know, we have all these digital tools that are now available, and they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re available to help problem solve and so, you know, does that change how we as lean practitioners solve problems in our work environments. Does it eliminate lean practitioners? Because now we have these digital tools that are solving the problems for us. What do you guys think? Let’s go to Andy, what do you think?

Andy Olrich  29:20

I think it’s like anything. Patrick, we tend to overdo it. We tend to get, you know, distracted by the shiny objects, and we we just jump in and just want to put it on everything, you know, like, if we’re using AI for process mining, that that’s great. And there’s a lot of things that are happening in that space, but are we looking at the right processes? Are they in the eyes of the customer, what we should be focusing on, and those sorts of things the application of. So there’s, there’s organizations that are looking into AI now, but technically they’re probably at industry 3.0 you know, they haven’t gone into the four point you know, it’s the same thing around when there’s a change we do, we try to fully automate things, and then, yeah. What happens? I definitely think it is some, some real efficiencies and gains that are there. I just think that we just have to have the people connected to it, because otherwise we may go a little bit too far too often. So that’s really my sort of, my early observations is with, you know, people are replacing, you know, writing their own papers with chat, GPT, for example, straight away, the smart companies are going in to see, well, actually, that’s been written by, you know, there’s ways that they can interrogate. Well, that’s not really, that’s not really you that’s, that’s a machine telling stat, and that’s all of that is dependent on someone teaching that, and then it learns from there. So again, if the data in data out if it’s if it’s skewed from the start, we yeah, we should use it collaboratively, I believe, and experiment and learn as we go. But yeah, there are some organizations already publishing some things about we got too carried away already, and we’re trying to wind that back because we got distracted. So there’s a bit in that, I’m sorry, but that’s, that’s that’s really my whole take on that, and where I think it can really help us. But yeah, let’s, yeah, let’s, let’s not get and Andy,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  31:07

it’s interesting, because I think Lynn kind of speaks to that. What you were saying, you know, digital tools are still tools that are helpful, but the core thought process, yeah, you know, one, one of the to give an example of how we use it at the state, yeah, digital tools are all the rave, but we had a great relationship my team, the continuous improvement team, had a great relationship with our IT department, in that everyone wanted to automate their stuff. But if you automate suck, it still sucks. Now it’s just faster. So the great thing that the partnership that we had was when they got a request or a proposal for wanting to procure some kind of software, digital tool, the IT department would send it to us and say, Hey, will you sit down with these people and figure out what it is that they do, what it is that they want. And, and let’s, let’s reimagine the process to make sure we take out all the noise before we try to automate it. You know, sit down with, sit down with, with the people that actually do it. And, you know? And we would bring in the IT people so that they would understand, you know, oh, hey, I can help here, and I can help here. We just have a process map, and whenever we were done with the process map, we’d bring him in for like an hour or so, and they would just kind of poke around and go, yes, we could help with this and this and this and that collaboration, you know, with lean and with digital, that collaboration brought, you know, some pretty amazing things. Pop made some pretty amazing things possible.

Andy Olrich  32:39

And I think that the beauty of lean, for me is the simplicity of all that data. This is what it’s giving us, so much data, like, what do we do with this stuff? And how do we, you know, chunk it down into what connects with the person in the moment, on yet at the front line, who isn’t right? You know, writing the data and things, and that’s what I love about Lean, is we can bring that down into some simple visual practices and tools, and then that can connect for that work. Again, where do I fit in with all with all of this, and what about all that other stuff that we’ve talked about? So again, I think it’s, yeah, complimentary, and keeping it visual is, I think it’s a great combination. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Patrick Adams  33:15

So I want to go to another question, Catherine, just throw in. Throw posing this to you, because you’ve done quite a bit of work in the non manufacturing space. So, you know, lean. Lean kind of a, you know, originated in manufacturing. Is it still applicable in other industries, like healthcare, nonprofit, government, you know it. You know, banking industries, it would you say that lean in 2025 is still necessary and needed in those other industries?

CATHERINE MCDONALD  33:48

Well, for a very simplified answer, lean, essentially, when you break it down, is about continuous improvement, and it’s about respect for people, involving people, people doing the work, right? If you look at it in a real nutshell, that’s what it is. Everything is based around those two concepts, right? So yes, is there any industry out there who doesn’t need to work on their respect for people, you know, their inclusion of people and plus continuous improvement? I would say the answer is no. So therefore, I would say Lean is still relevant in absolutely every industry, there is challenges, of course, within other industries, for example, in the service sector, I’ve worked in busy cafes and bars and hotels and restaurants, and they struggle a little bit because of the pace of work. So I do think it’s not the same and well, I mean, manufacturing can be like that too, on busy lines. It’s just about changing the mindsets of people in in different industries who haven’t maybe heard of lean or understood that lean requires a little bit of pause and reflection and thought, but it’s absolutely more important than ever, I would say, with everything that’s been thrown at us now. So. It’s absolutely applicable. And you’ll see in Ireland, we have lean for micros happening all across Ireland. It’s their local government initiatives, and you have every industry partaking in those, and every one of those organizations goes through an evaluation at the end, and they’re published. So there’s so many reports of lean in these industries and the impacts that type, any type of Lean mentoring, has on them. So it’s 100% relevant. I absolutely think that, not without its challenges, but definitely relevant,

Patrick Adams  35:29

right, right? Shane, what would you say from a government perspective, with your involvement in the state of Nebraska, would you say with all the digital tools, with AI, with all these different things that are happening right now is, is lean still relevant? Will it still be used in the government space?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  35:55

I want to get kind of snarky about this, because the government space is really all about serving the people, like of of any of the industries that I can think of, and I guess they’re all, they all want to serve the people, but definitely, like they are chosen to be stewards of our tax money and all of those kind of things, Our resources. So how can we, you know, I lean gets all fancy, fancy and trying to simplify things, but I’m, I’m just going to be a little snarky and say, You know what customers love. Customers love complexity. You know, customers, their complexity is like a mystique. You know, customers want to engage with a puzzle of, how do I work around this process of getting these government resources, you know, so why should we really make things simple? Simplicity is boring. It’s predictable, you know, complexity now there’s a premium right there, you know, I and I say this, this tongue in cheek, of course, but in the government space, it it is needed so much because of that focus on the customer. You know, who is, who is our customer, and sometimes the government. In the government space, there’s so many layers or levels that it’s hard to see. So it was challenging as a practitioner, you know, when I would go in and talk to people deep inside the building that never got to see the public out there. Challenge them to think about, hey, who’s your customer? You know, let’s, let’s actually, let’s actually put a face to that customer. What do they do? Do they have a dog? Do they have kids? Do they have hopes? What do they want to do in the morning when they’re on their way to work? You know, all of these things just to to give them, like, flesh this idea out of, oh, we’re actually serving a real person here and and these, these things that we’re doing help us to best serve that purpose and those people that we have, you know when, when we have that mindset, no matter what industry it is, but it’s definitely, I think, huge in the government sector. How can we better serve our people? Well, we make the processes, we can make the systems, the applications, you know, whether it’s the DMV or whether it’s, you know, working in the right of way, or applying for SNAP benefits, or, you know, trying to do your taxes, and working with with the the you know, the tax service there, whatever it is lean, can certainly help us better serve those people. And just in that itself, right there, I found that when I can explain that to people and get them to catch on to that idea they were so willing and interested in You’re right. Let’s improve the let’s see what we can do to make this better for those that have to go through this process. So, yeah, it totally, totally makes sense to me. Love it. Love it. Go

Andy Olrich  38:53

ahead. Andy. I was just going to say I absolutely agree. Having experience working in a state owned Corporation, there’s, you know, as the region grows and the expectations, customer expectations are increasing, that’s great, and we can do all those things, but it’s it comes at a cost, and the more we do, unfortunately the customer, at some point will be charged for that. So if we’re trying to deliver the same or more outcomes without putting that cost of additional cost of living pressure, especially at the moment with with what’s happening in various parts of the world, lean is absolutely a way to to reduce that waste that we talk about. We can deliver those outcomes, but with, you know, less error, less defects, improve quality, like that’s where I really see if there was ever a time that we really need it. I think if it’s not now or in a crisis, then when is it? So I really that’s the connection is, yeah, we can do that. We let’s talk about the what, but the how is where we can use Lean and that that type of thinking in our people to get to that outcome, but with just a far, far, lot less of that exciting complexity that. You talked a bit. Yeah, it’s just the messaging, yeah, the messaging, and what we need for us and the people who are on this call is help us share more of those stories, because I think that’s really where we’ll get the cut through. So yeah, yeah, great. There’s a lot of regulation red tape in government, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think

Shayne Daughenbaugh  40:17

you kind of you should. I lost my thought with the red tape I was I had a plan. You said red tape and ever the wheels just fell off, because, keep going, keep going, keep going.

Patrick Adams  40:36

So before we, before we move on to the next question, I just want to pause for, just for a minute, I want to throw up another mentee, because one of the reasons why we’re here today is not only to talk about the topic of relevance in 2025 lean relevance in 2025 but also we want to pull you as the audience and ask you, what topics would you like to see in 2025 what would be helpful as you start facing these different challenges within the year. If we were to put a schedule out there, and, you know, have certain topics that and guests that talk, you know, get experts that are going to talk about those topics. What would help you in 2025 so if you go to menti.com and use code 68012991, you can drop a, you know, a response in there. And again, we will leave this, this poll open even after the live recording is done. So if you’re listening to the replay on this, you can still go to menti.com use code 68012991, and just drop in some thoughts or ideas around which topics that you’d like to see in 2025 as episodes on the Lean solutions podcast. Also, if you’re not subscribed to the Lean solutions podcast, you can find it on your favorite podcast platform, anywhere you know that podcasts are offered, just search lean solutions podcast and you’ll you’ll find the podcast, and just make sure you subscribe to it. That way you get updates when new episodes come available. So let us know any topics. You can also drop those into the comments as well. But we’d love for you to use the the mentee survey link here. We just had one drop in capturing and measuring the waste of not doing or following through with improvements.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  42:32

Yeah, that’s a good one. I like it. That one’s painful.

Patrick Adams  42:36

Yes, it is okay. I’ll leave that up and we’ll see as as a few more responses come in again, feel free to go to menti.com use that code and let us know any topics that would help you to with the challenges in 2025 so we have about 15 more minutes left. I want to go. I want to talk about the when we did the last poll, those top four challenges, the number one challenge that our audience said was sustaining lean in 2025 so as organizations are deploying lean in into their organizations, as they’re developing learning cultures, as they’re working on deploying principles of Lean, we The question that I have is around the leaders role in sustaining lean. So how if, if lean, if we’re all going to say that Lean is relevant, which I think we all do say that Lean is relevant, how does the leader leaders role need to change, or what are the right behaviors that leaders should be displaying in order to support long term sustainment of Lean practices in 2025 and beyond. So with that, I’ll go to, let’s start with you. Shane, what do you

Shayne Daughenbaugh  43:52

think? Because I, again, I’m, I’m going, you know, a little bit averse here, a little backwards when you said, you know, the leadership’s mindset, I just want to say that continuous improvement is overrated. I mean, really, what are we trying to prove? You know, progress just creates more work. I mean, let’s face it, improvement implies there’s something wrong and and there’s, there’s really nothing wrong. Honestly, striving for excellence is exhausting. So I can’t imagine why leaders would even want to strive for excellence, just the ideas that I, that I that I think of, and then what, what also comes to mind is, you know, from from leadership is all, all the challenges that they’re facing. Hey, I don’t have time. I don’t have the staff, you know, I don’t have the money. You know, all of these things that are these immediate glaring, you know, golems in front of them. It’s interesting to note that lean can actually help those. Oh, so you don’t have time, great, then you need me. Oh, so you’re. On staff. Fantastic. Then lean can help you. Obviously you don’t have any money. Well, great. Let’s find ways of, you know, shoring up the revenue that you do have and making sure that you’re not wasting the precious resources. So those that forward thinking mindset in leadership to be able to one humbly acknowledge, hey, there might be some things that we could, that we could improve, and also, like, project into the future that forward thinking of and let’s work on that. You know, let’s not, let’s not wait to do that until everything is is all calmed down, because I don’t know when business actually calms down, but instead of waiting for the right time, you know, as I think Andy mentioned, you know, what better time than now than in a crisis? What better time than when you you know things are topsy turvy and so unsettled, to try to create some standards and to try to create some systems that are robust, and to create some things that actually make it easier, better, faster and cheaper for your employees to do the great work that your organization does.

Patrick Adams  46:11

Love it. Love it. Along the along those same lines with leader behaviors, and I was going to go to Andy on this one, just ask about like in 2025 Do we need a command and control leadership style, or do we need a servant leadership style that empowers teams like with all the changes that have happened? Do we do we need to go back to traditional management and the command and control mentality, or will a Lean leadership mindset of, you know, again, servant leadership that’s empowering teams. Will that work in 2025 and beyond? What do you think

Andy Olrich  46:57

that’s a very good question. I i I’m not sitting hard either side of that, I think, and sorry if it’s disappointed, it’s a little bit on the fence in some ways. But I think that look the servant leadership, the mindset, I think, in environments where people have a choice of what where they can work, and what things they can do for a career, and what gives them, you know, enriches their lives and helps them be successful. And I think the servant leadership model certainly attracts those and retains those types of people and drives those more positive results with team engagement and, you know, people helping each other to get it done. There is a piece there, though, up the other end where I think, if we are starting to slip from the standard and or there’s, there’s a call that’s got to be made, that I think there is at that moments, you know, with with the customer in mind, and the bigger picture, I think there is a little bit of that as little bit of that stick still needed, in some ways, or to bring things back on track, to stick with it. Because, as we talked about a crisis or whatever, if it’s when we’re really under the pump and stressed and things are all going wrong at once. It is kind of easy to sort of step out and, oh, we’ll just get back to doing everyone just go and just go and get it done and we’ll regroup later. So I’m sorry that I think I absolutely believe that servant leadership and leaders who serve it certainly build better teams and deliver better outcomes. But it can be a slow burn and and I think, you know, just being told what to do. I think there’s enough history and we talk about research. I think we know that. You know, long term, it doesn’t end well. So there you go. Gleaned from that what you will, yeah, servant leadership. We need to try and stick to that as much as we can. Yeah,

Patrick Adams  48:35

yeah, no. I definitely think humility, active listening, a commitment to continuous improvement, I mean, and obviously all of the other aspects of being a servant leader, they are still relevant in 2025 and I think not only relevant, I think that that type of leadership style is Definitely going to allow companies to thrive in 2025 Catherine, what are your thoughts on this, on this topic of sustaining leadership and just leadership behaviors in general, in 2025 and beyond?

CATHERINE MCDONALD  49:13

You know, I’ve always believed in, I guess, coaching leadership, because that’s what I have taught it’s I’ve seen the benefits of it, but I will say that I’m seeing more and more that it’s not the only leadership approach that’s needed out there. I think in times of uncertainty and uncertainty, we do look to leaders for more guidance and direction. So I do think in 2025 leadership is all about balancing structure with flexibility. I think we need leaders who have a clear vision, who can communicate really that vision really well, who can set expectations, who can shine a light on a path. I think we need leaders to do that, but I also then think within the boundaries and expectations, it’s important to coach and develop people and we. Work with people, almost like a partnership within those boundaries. So for me, that’s a little bit like a balance, a dance that you just look at what’s needed at certain times of the year, of the month of the week, and you choose your approach based on that, but it is about balancing the two. I think, yeah, no,

Patrick Adams  50:18

I think that’s a that’s a really good point, and also makes me think about also, you know, executive leaders or decision makers at companies who are maybe listening to this, and they think, you know, well, will is lean something that would help my company, like, what do you what did you guys say to someone like that that maybe they’re learning about continuous improvement for the very first time? Maybe they, maybe they read the Toyota way, and they just learned about TPS and the value that it can bring to their organization. But maybe they’re wondering like, well, you know, the Toyota way was written a good number of years ago. Is this, you know, will this still help me in 2025 A lot has changed. Shane, what would you say to an executive that is questioning that and wondering, you know, I’m kind of skeptical, is, would lead, can lean be is it important? Should it be important

Shayne Daughenbaugh  51:18

to me? Yeah. I mean, I the idea of lean in, you can, you know, speaking to you saying, hey, you know the Toyota way and all those things, those came out in the in the 80s, and leans been around forever. But lean in, in its nature is progressive. Lean changes and shifts and adapts. And, you know, always looking for what that next best is. So even though it might be, or have been around, you know, for so long, and used mostly in manufacturing, you know, it’s, it’s a totally different, you know, I don’t know a great analogy. I’m trying to think of what, what it could be, but it’s a totally different system than than it was. I shouldn’t say totally. It’s significantly different than than what it was before, when it was first just, hey, this is it. It’s very systematic, and it’s very much about manufacturing. It’s grown and evolved. And the beauty that that I love about Lean is, no matter where you’re at in your Lean journey, there are things you can do, there are principles you can use that are going to benefit you from the get go. Right from the onset. It might take a while to really show that in your financials, but guaranteed it will show that in your financials in so many other ways. But it doesn’t have to be. You don’t have to swallow the whole thing all at once. There could be just, what are some of the principles, you know, what are some of the core principles? Let me do those, or what are some of the tools that we could implement into what we’re already doing really well. You know, I love how lean has been kind of adopted into the healthcare and, you know, in the healthcare system. And they had some great things they were doing before, and they found out, hey, this Lean thing, you know, these stand ups, the, you know, the the boards that that lean uses. Man, we could use those. We’re already using something similar. So I love how adaptable and adaptive it can be to whatever the situation might

Patrick Adams  53:19

be, yeah, yeah. And I love that you said that lean has evolved because it has, it’s changed. And, you know, there are, obviously the principles are the principles, the concepts are the concepts. But you know, many companies as lean has, you know, come out of manufacturing and has become a very relevant in other industries outside of manufacturing, salute, different solutions have been created based on the problems that they’re experiencing, just by applying scientific thinking and developing a learning culture. So they’re experimenting and solving problems and coming up with new solutions that that you know, again, are making their processes more efficient and their organizations more successful. So, you know, that’s a that’s a powerful piece, I think, and I love that you use the word evolve, that Lean is evolving. Catherine, what would what practical steps can leaders take to keep lean alive in their organizations? If they’re, if they’re already committed to and they maybe they’ve already, they’re, they’re utilizing lean in their organization. They’re communicating it, it’s, it’s, it’s part of their culture. It’s embedded in their culture. Going into 2025 how do they how do they keep the excitement, the motivation, the relevance of lean, you know, at the fingertips of the workers in their organizations. Any practical steps that that you would recommend?

CATHERINE MCDONALD  54:49

Yeah, so I think it starts with leading themselves. So I think it starts with leading and organizing themselves. So first of all, something like leader, standard work, if you look at your leaders. Standard Work, what does that tell you about where you’re spending your time? Are you spending your time keeping lean alive? You know, doing GEMBA walks, or teaching people how to do GEMBA walks, or coaching people or doing structured problem solving. Because if your Leader Standard Work is not showing that you’re obviously not keeping lean alive as a leader. So I think the whole area of time management and Leader Standard Work is absolutely essential, and it’s where to start, even just to get a synopsis of how, how well am I doing this right now, you know, versus what I what should I be doing as a leading leader? And to ask yourself those questions, I think that’s really important.

Patrick Adams  55:38

Yeah, no, I agree completely. And as we So, as we start to wrap up here, and kind of closing up our time here, we got about four minutes left, I wanted to just kind of go maybe around the room with some maybe some key takeaways, or number one key takeaway, just to kind of summarize what we talked about over the last 60 minutes. And, you know, maybe start with Andy. Maybe Andy, what was your, you know, during our conversation today, what we’ve talked about around just lean and its relevance in 2025 and forward, what would be one thing that maybe stood out to you during the conversation today?

Andy Olrich  56:20

For me, it’s really, again, the alignment of, there’s a lot of things coming at us now, and there’s a lot of challenges. The rate of change, technology is really taking over a lot of things, and for us, it’s to how we can still anchor ourselves into the core principles and why we’re we’re looking to, to keep our people and customers at the heart, but then leverage all of these great things that we’ve invented to Support us and become more efficient without overdoing it and talking again, is if we’re looking at exploring this or keeping this alive, really about what problem are you trying to solve? And there’s not one tool or one cookie cutter way to do it. So I think it’s more about anchor ourselves and what this is really about, and what it’s meant to be. And then how can we, I guess, exploit all these amazing things that through Lean and other types of innovation we’ve got at our disposal without getting too excited? So that’s yeah, bit of a new, bit of the old, and keep people involved. Absolutely

Patrick Adams  57:18

yes, for sure. Catherine, what would you say?

CATHERINE MCDONALD  57:24

I guess I’m a little worried, because I do think lean, as you have highlighted, all of you, that has to evolve. I’m just, I’m a little worried we are sticking to the old traditional ways, and we’re we are getting overwhelmed by the new ways, the technology, the AI, my hope is that we’ll figure it out, and it’s okay to be worried and it’s okay to believe we’ll figure it out. I just think there we have something to go through over the next year to try and figure all that out. I don’t really know what that looked like yet, but I do believe there’s work needed to figure this out.

Patrick Adams  57:58

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well. And again, the principles are the principles. And you know, understanding value from the eyes of the customer, like that does not need to change. We need to understand value from the eyes of the customer, but how we do that, and how we deliver value to the customer, depending on the industry, where we are, and all the advancements that are happening, some of that is going to have to change, and it has changed, and we just have to accept that, and, and, and, you know, understand it and, and help, you know, our companies make that happen, you know. So I think that’s a that’s a really good takeaway. Shane, what would you say?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  58:37

I really appreciated what Catherine mentioned here just most recently in regards to sustainability is going to be on leadership. And I’ve seen too many leaders that bring in the expert, the contingency permit expert, send them on their way, but they don’t absorb that the principles and the core things so that they can help sustain their teams in doing this. So I loved what you mentioned Catherine there that it that leadership is super important in in how well your Lean efforts and your continuous efforts are going to stick.

Patrick Adams  59:18

Yeah, love it. And I would say, for me, I think the conversation just around leans human centric approach, and not that, you know, we have all these digital tools and AI and all these things that are coming out those aren’t going to replace the human decision making. Rather, they’re going to compliment and augment what we’re already doing from a human approach. And I think that that’s one of the things that we really have to key in on as we go into 2025 understanding and knowing that we don’t need to be scared of AI and digital tools. They’re not going to replace lean. You know, as we talked about earlier. Uh, waste is not going away. We still have waste. We always will. And our noise, as we say, as you say, Catherine, so that they’re problems, we’re going to experience problems. So utilizing digital tools and AI and all these other things that are coming to augment and help us to make better decisions, you know, I think is the key. So,

1:00:24

yeah,

Patrick Adams  1:00:25

so we’re going to leave you with that. And as we are at the top of the hour, I just want to thank everyone for logging on. And again, we’ll keep the those, those surveys, the menti surveys, open if you want to just help us pick a episodes for 2025 and and also please share this out. And if you have not already subscribe to the Lean solutions podcast, you can do that on any podcast platform. Just search lean solutions podcast, you’ll find us subscribe. We’re also posting all of our episodes on the Lean Solutions YouTube page as well, so you can subscribe to that as well. So there’s lots of different ways that you can find the podcast and and be and also share it. Share it with your friends, and hopefully we can offer you some some value in 2025 around how to keep lean relevant and utilize the tools to the techniques, the principles to to transform your organization in a positive way. Alright? Well, thanks again. Thanks a lot, everybody, and and I’ll see you in on the next episode of Lean solutions podcast.

Andy Olrich  1:01:36

Thanks everyone. Thanks everyone. Thanks

Patrick Adams  1:01:40

so much for tuning in to this episode of the lean solutions podcast. If you haven’t done so already, please be sure to subscribe this way. You’ll get updates as new episodes become available. If you feel so inclined, please give us a review. Thank you so much.