Patrick Adams  00:00

Hello, and welcome to the Lean solutions podcast. My name is Patrick Adams, and my guest today is Carrie bass. Harry is the CEO and founder of potential to reality Consulting and a senior member of ASQ. He is an executive consultant who specializes in enterprise transformation, operational excellence and organizational change management, his personal and professional focus is on helping organizations and societies that are dedicated to the well being of their stakeholders to achieve and sustain excellence. For more than 25 years, Carrie has been leading and supporting transformation in major organizational change for government agencies, as well as nonprofit and commercial enterprises. Well, welcome to the show. Carrie. Thank you, Patrick. Absolutely, it’s it’s good to have you here. I love when we have someone from the from, you know, that works in the government, or has worked with organizations in the government, because it’s so different than you know that for a lot of us, you know, I work in with a lot of organizations, I work, you know, manufacturing a lot, but the government is just so different. So to hear your perspective, coming from the, you know, the government sector and working with nonprofits, and how Lean and Six Sigma applied, you know, in these organizations is always fun for me. So I’m excited for this conversation. I’m looking forward to it. And and I guess that’ll lead me into my first question, Carrie, if you’re ready for it. My first question is around the difference between the public and the private sector. You’ve worked in both areas, and with a lot of different organizations, you have a ton of background, and I’m curious to hear how quickly does change happen in in your experience with both these areas? Because when I think about the US and the government’s but you know, specifically in the US, I think things probably move kind of slow. That would be my personal opinion, maybe some experience behind that. But I’m curious to hear what you think, um, you know, the differences in speed and how fast change happens within these two areas.

 

Kerry L. Bass  02:42

Generally, it’s true that, you know, the government moves more slowly than industry does, and particularly on purpose to be able to bring the public along. However, the biggest consideration I found that makes the difference between the speed of change, regardless of the organization, is the the focus of the leadership on how quickly they want to get through the change process into producing results out of the organization in the new environment.

 

Patrick Adams  03:12

Sure, sure. That makes sense. So so so it depends, and which is always my there’s always there’s so many factors that come into consideration. It so I guess, is it is it always good to move faster? I mean, I think about, you know, if we go back to some some early Toyota quotes and thoughts around, you know, easier, cheaper, faster, is faster, always good. That would be another question I have for you.

 

03:40

And again, it’s kind of a generalization. And a kind of a motto that I go by as time is not your friend, particularly with change. The idea is, is that the longer you take to get through the different phases of the change, and actually producing results, the more likely it is that resistance can build up, or people will get confused or lose heart in the change. So it’s really important once you launch that you really want to move expeditiously through to start getting into our performing mode.

 

Patrick Adams  04:14

That makes sense. What do you do for those people that have a hard time moving quickly, that maybe need time to accept the change or adjust to the change? Or, you know, they they need more time spent with them? I mean, is that how do you how do you work with someone like that?

 

04:35

Well, change management is really important to be able to prepare. But one of the first things that I do and this is a difference between government and the private sector is I found that you really need to prepare the organization particularly with the leadership first, to be able to determine who is capable and willing to be successful in the new environment who has to do determine that as best you can. And with that in mind, you need to prepare your organization and get it aligned as far as who is going to go on that change journey with you, versus those that are going to be having to do something else along the way, I find it very demoralizing for the organization. And also it slows you down, when you have to make a change of staff or a change of personnel along that transformation journey. So what that means, then, is that you really need to think about for those people that are going to be in that new environment, what will it take for them to be successful from a skills and a orientation standpoint, but also from a psychological in a in a willingness standpoint to be successful?

 

Patrick Adams  05:52

Sure, sure. And that makes a ton of sense. And I think there’s a lot of organizations out there that don’t take that into consideration, right. So they, they jump on this Lean journey, and they’re and they’re pushing forward. But they never took the time to make sure that they communicated where they were going to their team members. Not only that, but equip them with the skills and the tools that are necessary for their team members to succeed and the change. And, and I have to imagine that makes it so much that much more difficult for team members to accept the change. Right, and they’re given those things. Absolutely.

 

06:27

And that’s one of the things I think also that came about the great transformation, we used to call it great resignation. But the idea was, is that when people were confronted with a profound concept of am I doing what I really want to do, if tomorrow, I will leave this earth is this what I really want to do, then people started making really hard choices. And so the traditional sense of just being able to hire somebody, and they will go along, began to be challenged by our staffs. And so quite frankly, a lot of folks decided, no, this is not what I really want to do. And so I think leaders needed to realize that, what’s the value proposition for somebody to be in my organization, and also in the new environment of where we’re going to. So it’s

 

Patrick Adams  07:19

so true and such an important piece, especially with, you know, so many things changing so quickly in the last few years. But to your earlier point, it’s still important that we’re able to, you know, move quicker through a transformation. And so I guess I want to throw that out to you, what are some some some techniques or some strategies that leaders or employees that organizations can take to achieve, you know, positive, pot achieve positive change faster? What are some things that they could do?

 

07:56

Well, one of the things that I’ve added to my practice toolbox is a tool to be able to look at the alignment of personalities and work behaviors, with the strategies that the organization is going to go through from both a sustaining process, but also to a new change process. And being able to align those, those are people that are going to be in the future, that have the core capabilities and skills to be able to, to adapt to the change their environment. And then for those that are not, then you need to have a conversation about you know, are you willing to learn? And what do we need to do to prepare you? Or if you’re not willing to learn, then what can we get you to so you can be successful in your, your new world, because the organization is going to go to a different ways. And so we want you to be successful also?

 

Patrick Adams  08:57

Sure. Carrie, do you think that is there ever a time when we have to make a decision to to let an employee go, because they’re not willing to get on board or move in the direction of the organization? And what does that look like? How long do we spend, you know, trying to coach that person, you know, into that into that change? versus making the decision to separate them? Or do we not ever make that decision? Do we allow them to stay on the team and try to figure out another place for them? What are your thoughts on that?

 

09:32

No, there’s an old cliche that goes along with change that says basically, you have to change the people or you have or then you have to change the people. Meaning that those that are capable and willing to make the change. Those are the ones that you want to work with, but those that are not willing and capable, then then you have to make a decision that it would be unproductive for the organization but also unproductive for that individual to flounder, and to be in a situation where they are not going to be successful. So the, in my experience, the willingness part is probably the initial willingness is easy to determine. Sometimes people are not necessarily true to themselves, or the organization and saying, Yeah, I’m willing to go. But they’re there, they’re not necessarily totally aware of what that commitment means. Or they’re just, you know, thinking that I want to hold on to this job, and that I’ll wait it out to see change happen. So that we’re not going to actually be successful in the change, and now just hang around and wait for this one to fail and to go along. So I think that you really need to be critical about the assessment of skills capability, as you go through training and orientation, be able to put in place some solid, in, I don’t want to say testing, but then really, that’s kind of what it is to confirm that the skills have been attained, and that they’re capable of being applied in the new environment. And if those skills are not applied, but the person is willing, then you can go through and be able to modify training or get some additional remedial training to be able to say, can we make this gap up? But you know, after a round or two, if the gap still remains, then that requires some heart discussions about, you know, it looks as though that this is going to take more time and effort, then then either one of us can commit to thee for you to be successful. So we need to find a place for you to be more successful. Sure, for the easier conversation is for those that decide that no, this is not for me, remember, a major effort that we had, we were changing a major government transaction software, where it was going to require policymakers to actually get engaged in defining the requirements and that new coding for part of the the transaction management system. And they many of those folks said, No, we don’t I don’t do programming. I’m a policy person. And so I’m not going to do that. I understand I can I just don’t want to. And so we understood that upfront, and we engineered a process that they were able to help build a requirements and then move to another area that that we’re going to be successful in away from this particular government program.

 

Patrick Adams  12:29

Yeah, that’s a great example. And I love I love Jim Collins analogy, too, of having the right people on the bus, and are they in the right seats? Right? You had, you know, people who understood where we were heading and had an interest to to be part of it. You know, but so they they were on the right bus, but they were not maybe in the right seats, so they were willing to shift to somewhere else. And because they were the right people, they met our values they, they were excited about where we’re going just not maybe in the right seats versus someone who says, you know, this isn’t for me. I’m not not only am I not in the right seat, but I’m not even on the right bus. That’s correct. So I need to get off.

 

13:15

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it’s important to take that on earlier, where there’s there’s before anger or disappointment, and a lot of that emotion sets in, so you can have a productive conversation and a productive transition for everybody.

 

Patrick Adams  13:33

Yeah, makes sense. What about so if we, you know, let’s just say we’re going through a change transformation, and we’re, and we’re moving fairly fast, and we do have people that self selected to get off the bus or let’s say, in an apartment, they decide to move and seats or whatever it may be. Now, I need more people, right? I need I need the right people to join my organization, I need the right people to get on the bus. How do I get the right people to come aboard to be part of the direction that we’re heading? Any any strategies around that?

 

14:06

Well, it starts out with a clear understanding of the leadership of that organization, understanding where are they going to, and also not just from an external standpoint of what’s required to be successful in this environment. But what do I believe? And what are my core values and leadership styles, that and will that be successful in the new environment? And so if if I understand and I have true integrity about who I am, then I can be able to set that organization in the right mode. I think it was the CEO of Spotify said about a year or so ago, that you know, and it kind of shocked a lot of people where he was Shopify believes in Spotify. That Um, we are not a family. We are a high performing team. And so I thought that that was you know, and it was kind of harsh sounding at first, but it was very clear. And I really admired him for saying that. Because that set the tone with true integrity of what you can expect of being part of that team, then you’re more like a professional athletic team, we care about each other, we try to help each other out. But in the end, what we’re about is delivering. And so it so therefore, if you’re not, you know, achieving objectives, and you’re not, you know, going 100% All the time, then we, we really are not part of that you can’t expect to be part of this team going forward. And so you need to be willing to commit to that. And so therefore, nobody is confused. Now, consequently, if that’s what you’re going to do, you have to be willing to pay for that, because people are expecting that if I’m going to be part of a high performing team, I expect to be a winner. And I expect to be getting the compensation that matches my expectation in the compensation of winners, that means that we, we are on the top performance wise, I’m on the top, from a compensation wise or whatever the objective is.

 

Patrick Adams  16:22

Let’s, let’s expand on that a little bit. Because I love that example. And that’s I’ve never heard that quote before. So I’m gonna have to go do my own reading on that, because that’s I love that I that that example. Let’s talk about that a little bit more on the differences between a family and a high performing team, what does that look like? And how, you know, how can a high performing team environment help you achieve change faster versus, you know, having the family environment? Because again, and that doesn’t necessarily mean I think to your point, it doesn’t mean that you don’t care about each other, it’s just a different, a different thought about what we do when we’re together. So can you just expand a little bit more on that? Yeah,

 

17:07

and I think if you if you look at sports teams, and also as families as an example, that’s, that’s a pretty good analogy of it. And I think a lot of times, and let me just take the family example, to begin with, that organizations do themselves a dis disservice, by speaking so much of the fact that we are a family. But when it organization, then, you know, gets to a position of where they have to deal with financial pressures, competitive pressures, or a major change of technologies or environment that requires a shift in personnel and staff, then, then you have to make some hard choices and determinations as to what you’re going to do about it in a family. If you know, you generally don’t fire family, although I have to admit my dad fired me one time for in our family business. But

 

Patrick Adams  18:06

a lot though, through that

 

18:09

I did, and mom made him take me back, but But okay, but but the idea, though, was is that even though he fired me, he still had to feed me, so. And so firing in a family doesn’t necessarily achieve the economic successes that you want to achieve. And consequently, then that means that you do other things that you that to protect that flexibility to like you may not hire as quickly in a family business, because you know, that, you know, it’s going to be us and no matter what comes then we need to absorb it. So if you’re a family, you may expect that people will go above and beyond will do more than the minimum required because of the fact that we’re running very lean, to ensure that we never have to get into a situation that we have to deal with those hard choices. Now, from a high performing team standpoint, you’re looking for the best talent for today in the game today. And so and maybe even preparing for the game tomorrow. So if if you are performing at the top of your game, and that is what’s required for the organization that you are you can feel comfortable that you’re part of that team. However, you need to be aware that we’re talking about what’s winning today and winning tomorrow. And so, if you’re going to continue along that path and you need to ensure that your skills and capability of delivering allows you to be able to to deliver at your peak performance today and for tomorrow. Now, you may get to a point where you decide that I’m not willing to put that much effort into it going forward. That is a reasonable decision to make. And so now you need to expect that I’m moving out, I’m going to get off at the starting lineup of the team. And that, you know, I’m looking to, to, to sunset, my performance or my career with the team at this point in time, because the team will be successful, and I contributed for my time there, and then it was somebody else’s time to contribute as we go forward. So, that’s, that’s the mindset that I think it’s important for team players to have. And we need to as leaders be very clear, and, and, and, and I consider that as a matter of integrity. Because share that quite openly with the members of the team, where, you know, we either were a high performing team, or we are a family and I performing team also means is that sometimes you cover for the people that are next to you, you know, it’s not like you’re an individual player, you are part of a team.

 

Patrick Adams  20:59

Yeah, I love love the idea of laying these expectations out ahead of time, you know, similarly, we lean solutions, we, you know, we have values that we live by, that are built into our culture. And, you know, we we won’t hire someone without making sure that they understand very clearly what our values are, and what’s expected of them in alignment with those values. Because we know that, that that will help us to become a high, high performing team, by having people that are, you know, rowing in the same direction. And then while you were talking, I was thinking specifically about my, my oldest daughter, who is now married and lives while she was in Montana, she just moved to Texas. But she played soccer at the university. And when she was younger, we moved her to a team, where she, the coach was very much fit, like work, we have a family here, and she loved the girls, and the girls loved her. And she created an environment where, you know, our daughter really enjoyed the camaraderie the family atmosphere. However, my daughter, we could tell her, her, her soccer, her technical skills really dropped off, she was part of a really great group of girls, which she continues to stay in contact with them. But we had some hard conversations, she was very young at this time, but we had smart conversations with her about some of this. And she made the decision to switch to a different team, which had a different coach, and this was a there was a lot of other things. So nobody get mad at me here. There were a lot of things that, that other details that go into this. But anyways, through that she moved to a different team. And this other team had a coach that definitely had, you know, she knew that the coach cared for her and the other girls, but this other coach was a driver, and he held her accountable. And he gave her, you know, specific goals for, you know, homework and things that she needed to be doing to get better. And her technical skills dramatically improved. And the team’s ability to win games together dramatically, you know, increased and it was just this very clear representation of exactly what you’re talking about the family environment versus, you know, a kind of a high performing team. Now, there’s nothing wrong with family environments. And hopefully, nobody’s taking that away from this because there are positives in both scenarios. But, you know, carry to your earlier point, if we’re trying to achieve change, positive change faster, or we have very specific goals in mind of what we want to do as an organization and where we want to go. If we want to get there faster. There are certain things that we have to take into consideration if we want to be if we want to move quicker and be considered a high performing work team. Does that that kind of help a little bit with

 

24:09

your thoughts on that? Yeah, absolutely. And I think and that’s one of the the hard choices of, of a leader you need. And that’s why I mentioned that it really needs to start with the leader, you need to understand who you are and what you’re willing to do. An example of that. I’ll kind of go back again to my old sports days. And I remember that we were playing football and so the we were kind of like a powerhouse. I grew up in Western Kentucky. And so there were a lot of teams in Eastern Kentucky but we were powerhouse in the Western Kentucky and so we could have just, you know, rested on our laurels there but we wanted to be recognized statewide. And so our coach told us what that takes is is that there is no offseason. Send, when winter you’re gonna do weights, during the spring, we’re going to be out running and, you know, in doing everything and so, and then When summer comes, we’re going to be doing two a days. And because at that when the season comes, you’re going to be able to go, you know, from from first second through the through overtime, full speed, and full contact, and we’re going to be winners. And so you decide if you choose not to do your winter weight program, you don’t you choose not to do the spring training, if you choose not to go through, you know, the play analysis and learning positions and learning to read, you know, the strategies, then nobody’s gonna make you do that. But also, you’re not guaranteed a spot on the starting varsity team either. And so as a consequence, that’s, that’s where it was. Now, I remember, I was all state honorable mention. As I graduated my senior year, and we had accomplished, you know, some some championships at a state level. And I remember walking into I made up in my mind that I was going to be a walk on in a team in the Southeastern Conference. At that time, it was the looseness team in the Southeastern Conference. But at tackle, I was like 220 pounds now and I know was relatively Alright, in the 40 yard dash. But so I decided that I was going to play it, you know, it will be a walk on for this, you know, the this team. And I walked into the Fieldhouse, and the coach kind of laughed. I mean, he said, I’m not going to tell you what to do. But you talk to the other folks, let me show you what they’re like. And the running backs, the smallest backs and receivers were as big as me. So and I was as small as alignment. And the linemen were gigantic. And so I just walked out of the, the Fieldhouse, and that was the end of my my football career. Now, we had a high performing team that had a very family oriented process, but I was out of my class. And so it was important for me to be able to make that choice that I probably could have, you know, hurt myself or tried to very hard to make the bench on this SEC team. But that’s not where I was going to be successful. So I made that choice myself.

 

Patrick Adams  27:25

What a great example. Well, it fits in perfectly. No, that’s great. So Carrie, I want to transition just a little bit here kind of change gears on you. Going back to your, you know, 25 plus years lead leading organizational change and for government agencies and some nonprofits. But I want to ask you, specifically in the US as we start to lead here towards lead up on elections coming up. Without getting too political here, I just want to know, I want to kind of pick your brain on how do we help citizens to have a little bit more faith in elections and get out to the polls this next year and invoke?

 

28:12

Well, you’re probably familiar with a lot of the process models for quality management. And matter of fact, I’m a senior member. And matter of fact, I’m the treasurer for ASQ, the largest professional organization for quality in in globally. And we did a position paper after the 2020 election that looked at why are people losing faith in the elections, but we were looking at it from a quality management standpoint. And so we made some recommendations. One was to look at a ISO standard ISO 54,001. That’s really a derivative of the ISO 9001 process. And that was about implementing a strong quality management culture in two electoral organizations. ISO 54,001, though also had some aspects that really kind of touched the political third rail of elections in the United States. And also the US electoral process is very distributed. In fact, there is only one partial national election, and that is for president and that’s not direct. That is the electoral college. That does that. We have 50 state elections that select the electors for that Electoral College, plus the rest of all the rest of the state and municipal offices in the country. But what we found out by analyzing it is that there is a big disconnect between what the citizens expected out of elections and what was being delivered. And there is a A model of expectations versus delivery and quality management by a doctor named Noriaki Cano. And the Kano model says that basically, if you’re not delivering quality that meets and exceeds the expectations of the clients, even though it’s perfect, even though it needs perfect delivery, it makes no difference. Because the the is not what the clients are expecting. And so consequently, what we’ve found is that there’s a term that’s kind of out there that the general expectation of voting in the United States and we coined that from it was conservative group, but it’s also but pretty much adopted, bipartisan or nonpartisan way that people expect it to be easy to vote, and hard to cheat. And so what we started recommending, and we created a center for electoral quality and integrity, that is built on that, nor yet the Kano model, but being able to help those electoral organizations be able to define that they have the ability and the the performance of trying to go out and understand what their voters want, from that perspective of it being easy to vote, and hard to cheat. And how do they know from the citizens perspective, not from the perspective of the laws and the electoral organization? And then how are they delivering against that. And so there is also the ASQ, created another standard called the N A, and the NC eight, the American National Standards Institute, government, one standard, that allows organizations to be able to look at the maturity of their processes and services and delivery, to see what level of maturity that they are, whether they’re maturing, or just beginning to look at the quality concepts, or mature that they’re leading. And they’re capable of showing that they’re capturing the the will or the expectations of the clients. And so we were able then to produce a a model, that we ought to look at being able to deliver against the expectations of the voters. So it’s really kind of like standard quality and client expectation management or experience management, is that we really need to go out and determine what do you need and your voters, your voters in the precincts and the areas that you’re responsible for? And how well are we delivering against that?

 

Patrick Adams  32:43

That’s great, great advice. You know, again, for anybody, not not just those of us in the US, but you know, anywhere in the world. And you mentioned quality quality management, you know, and being part of ASQ. Quality, quality management, I guess my first question, is quality management still relevant? And then, you know, I’d really be interested, it sounds like you would say, yes, but I want to hear your your thoughts based on what you just said. And then, you know, what does quality management look like, you know, in the government sector versus outside of the government sector, maybe just give us a little bit of a view on that. And then I have one last question after that, but throw throw, throw me some, some value on that.

 

33:25

I had this conversation with several of my peers and some of the, the the current day quality experts there. And I liked the quote that one has given me and he says, quality management only matters if you don’t if you still want to deliver value to our clients and personnel. If you don’t care about it, then no, it did quality.

 

Patrick Adams  33:52

I like it. But

 

33:54

the idea is, is that quality management? I think, primarily we started out obviously in manufacturing, and but it would really began a lot in the government environment, being able to deal with those big issues around how do you produce high quality goods for the war effort in World War Two. But the Toyota manufacturing processes and others have really shown that quality is important all the way to the C suite in the boardroom. There’s a model and my Japanese it’s not good enough for me to be able to say it but basically, looking at it from a Lean Six Sigma standpoint, there’s waste that’s produced at the production line and waste in middle management. And but there’s also waste produced at the at the C suite and the boardroom and that the waste that’s created strategically, can be so far, immense, that no amount of quality improvement on your front line or your middle management can, can occur for that can make up for that. And so consequently, I think that that’s one of the things that we need to always keep in mind. In the government environment, the obviously it’s more services delivery standpoint and services, but it also is strategic quality, like, what are you trying to accomplish? What the programs that you’re trying to deliver. And if you’re trying to produce something that does not make sense, or is not valuable for the citizenry, then no amount of quality improvement or quality management systems or posters or quality circles will make up for that you have to actually have high quality decisions at the top?

 

Patrick Adams  35:47

Yeah, that’s great. I know, I’ve bounced around a little bit today. But I want to bring this back around to from a quality management perspective, when we talk about elections and having faith in elections. What, what can we, as a whole society, what can communities do? What can individuals do to, to support? You know, the good quality? You know, in May, maybe it’s in elections, but you know, could even be outside of that, in your experience? What are your recommendations around how how, you know, we can be more successful in helping to support?

 

36:26

I think, again, it gets to be that that everybody needs to play their role. And if you think about it, citizens, regardless of the type of of political or governmental organization that it is, citizens really determine what is it that governments do? And so we need to be really clear about what is it that will benefit everybody to be successful in our society, and not just for the short term, but for the long term, then we need to make those decisions and political decisions that enable that strategy to be able to be put in place, once we have the strategic thinking and the infrastructure in place. Now we can be able to have government support businesses and be able to help individuals be successful in our societies, not just for today, but also sustainably going into the future.

 

Patrick Adams  37:22

Powerful. Well, I appreciate that answer. I appreciate you being on the show. Carrie, for those that are listening in, you know, we have a we have a lot of people that are in the, you know, government sector, nonprofits, and I believe you also even work outside of that with with corporations with businesses. You know, so if someone’s interested to reach out to you with some questions, you know, figure out a little bit more about what you do, what’s the best way to contact you?

 

37:51

Sure, the best way to contact me is to email. My company is the company, again, is potential reality consulting, by email address is the best one is info at making it reality.com. And also, you can go to our link site, I’m sorry, our website and our LinkedIn for making it real potential to reality, but making it reality.com www dot making your reality.com is my website. And you can interact and also request information there too.

 

Patrick Adams  38:26

Perfect. And we’ll drop both of those links into the show notes. If anyone is interested to reach out to Carrie, you can go right to the show notes. You can find those links right there and connect to Carrie directly. Again, Carrie, appreciate your time, appreciate you coming on the show and just sharing a little bit of your knowledge with our listeners. We hope to have you back at some point. And I just appreciate you being being a part of the show.