Patrick Adams  00:00

So, welcome to the Lean solutions podcast. This is the podcast that adds value to leaders by helping you improve performance, using process improvement solutions for bottom line results. My name is Patrick Adams. And this season, I’ll be joined by three other amazing hosts, including Katherine from Ireland, and Andy from Australia, and Shane, from the United States. Join us as we bring you guests and experiences of Lean practitioners from all over the world. Hello, and welcome to this episode of the lean solutions podcast. My name is Patrick Adams. And I’m joined by one of our other hosts, Andy Olrich. Today, Andy, how’s it going down under?

 

Andy Olrich  00:43

Good eye? It’s going great. How are you?

 

Patrick Adams  00:45

I’m doing great. Excited to be back on the show. I’ve been traveling a little bit over these last few weeks. So I’m looking forward to diving back in here, we have a great topic for today, an amazing guest. So what you know, personally, so I’m excited for the conversation today. Today, we’re going to be talking about transforming companies from within. So I think about, you know, as a consultant, as a coach and consultant, I run across many other consultants out there, and I work with a lot of companies. And a lot of times what I hear is, there’s consultants out there that will come into a company like parachute in, they put a bunch of stuff in place, and then then they leave, and everything falls apart. And problem is that that that particular consultant or coach or trainer, whoever it is, is not developing that team from within, they’re creating something that is a problem for that organization, because now the organization relies on that consultant or that trainer to come back, and having to keep come back to keep things going. And that is not a sustainable, Lean transformation. So I’m excited to talk about this today. Because those coaches and consultants that go into organizations, and help develop from the from the inside develop an army of problem solvers. That is the type of consultant that you want to have. And so I’m excited to talk with our guest today, Wes Hehn. So Andy, do you want to just introduce Wes, and then we’ll dive right into this conversation.

 

Andy Olrich  02:20

Absolutely love to the I’m really fortunate today to be joined by Wes. So Wes is the president of lean forward continuous improvement. And he has over 20 years of global experience in leading and implementing Lean strategies to drive business growth and achieve operational excellence aspirations. So in additional the West is formal education. He holds Lean Six Sigma certification, as well as multiple line certifications. And most notably, a lean systems program certification from the University of Kentucky Toyota cooperative, which reflects his deep knowledge and expertise in the Toyota Production System. So as you mentioned, Patrick yeah, there’s a personal connection. I’ve been fortunate enough to have been trained in and mentored by Wes, we met back in 2017. Yeah. And yeah, it was just one of those moments. And we’ll talk a little bit about it. But yeah, how you how you can have those connections or meet those people that really inspire you to get what Lean is truly about and, and really have that passion to go forward and, and make it part of how you work. But also, yeah, as well as it’s gone to be implemented in your personal life as well. So I’m really excited to have you on the show, Wes, and, Mike. Hey, going? Good.

 

Wes Hehn  03:34

Good. I’m very honored and excited to be on the show. Yeah, it’s, it’s gonna be exciting. So I’m really looking forward to today’s podcast and the discussion with him.

 

Andy Olrich  03:47

Last night, so yeah, as I said, we met back in 2017. And it was really around a, an organization that we’re both working in was around, how are we going to create, as Patrick said, that army of problem solvers, give us some training and set us up well, so that we could go on and, and not only implement and drive that lean improvement, but also then develop our own teams, you know, unique to the areas where we were working in it, but really have that full understanding and passion for Lean that was really infectious when we went into those training sessions. So that’s what we’ll be talking a lot about today, Wes, and I can say that I’ve truly felt that and I know, there’s a lot of organizations out there that are chasing the same thing or maybe wanting to know where to get started. So the conversation today well, we’ll go in a few different directions, but I just think, you know, if I was to summarize it, really for me, where it’s, it’s courageous in some ways to take something like this on it’s although it is, you know, it is a slow burn in your experience. But when we’re taking that extra time to develop our own people instead of consistent parachuting in as Patrick mentioned, what would you say probably The key benefits of building that capability from within?

 

Wes Hehn  05:04

Yeah, great question. So. So before I actually get into the answer to that, guys, I really want to preference my answer by really saying that, you know, I really have a true passion for developing individuals, it’s something that I just, I really get a kick out of training people through the Lean Certification Training Program, and really kind of imparting what I’ve learned over the years regarding the implementation of Lean within an organization. So you know, and I seen this with Andy and others, as well, it’s, you know, when I see that light bulb going off, and when students really grasp, you know, the concepts and the tools that we’re trying to get across, it just energizes me, it’s just, it’s something that I am fed by, it’s, it’s really, it’s really good. So, you know, really, you know, the outcome of that is, you know, the students now really understand why previous attempts, you know, have fizzled by not starting with standardization, and tools to reduce variability, and really put out fires, you know, they they quickly learned that you really have to have three things in place to sustain any change, you know, Leader Standard Work, visual management and going to the gemba. You know, those are very important. The gamba, obviously, you know, where the where the, the place where the value is added. You know, we use the LEAP approach. Everybody learns differently, you know, and so the LEAP approach is really kind of a learn and apply. And it really, you know, incorporates classroom training incorporates shopfloor, activities, and even a lab simulations. Throughout the training, you know, each individual is, you know, it’s not just one of those training sessions, where you go, Look, you go through the training, and you get a certificate at the end that you can put on your credenza. You know, basically, there’s requirements that come out of the lean certification training, so each participant is required to complete five lean events. And, you know, that’s those events are actually, you know, guided and mentored by myself or any other individual who is already gone through the training. You know, and it follows a lean roadmap that, again, begins with that standardized and stabilize, you know, and then it works through improving flow or creating flow. So, now that I’ve kind of got to that, back to your question, Andy, you know, the question of building the capability within your organization through training within an organization, within that organization, and it really includes, you know, the benefits really include creating lean warriors, Patrick, I think you use that term or lean army within an organization, right, so you don’t have those, those consultants, so those individuals kind of fly in, run the events and fly out. But the individuals that are actually trained, you know, now can support lean events or Kaizen events, you know, Kaizen being, you know, improved for the better within the company. And so, you know, those events can come from strategy deployment, which I like to refer to as improving the business, or from KPIs, KPIs within an area, it could either be operational or financial, you know, and that’s where I really call running the business. So now we’ve got individuals who are trained to be able to support that, you know, and when, when more individuals have the knowledge and the abilities, it really supports a more rapid change process, right? So and not just with, you know, it being more rapid, you can be assured that to change is going to take place, and most importantly, when you include those individuals, and they’re within all levels of the organization, one thing that you can be sure of is that, you know, involving them, that change process will be sustained. And I think that’s extremely important. You know, there’s many scholarly articles out there that that suggests that you know, developing colleagues and involving them in the change process also leads to increased intention, retention as well. Right. So, so that’s, you know, some of the benefits so, and, you know, in terms of You know, I guess that that really kind of summarizes it for me.

 

Patrick Adams  10:04

Yeah. If you don’t mind, let me jump in to Andy, I just want to hit on a couple of things that you mentioned. I’m trying to think of who the quote was from, but it’s something to the effect of teach me, and, you know, I’ll learn or show me and I’ll understand and then involve me, and, you know, I’ll be invested or that something to that effect. I’m sure someone out there will correct me. But I think that there’s so much power in what you said, Wes around involving people. So many times, you know, companies want, they just want to, you know, give me the 10 steps or, you know, tell my team what to do. And, you know, give us the answers. Well, that doesn’t work in long term sustainment, if you’re not involving people to where they have the buy in, you know, they’re invested in the outcome. I mean, that’s such an important concept. And so I wanted to just hit on that briefly. But then also what you what you said about people and just respect for people brought up a question in my mind, as you’re going into these organizations, and you’re working with them in developing internal strength of the team skills, knowledge abilities, do you ever come across people that are stubborn, or maybe they’ve been around for a while and they don’t want to change? They want to hold on to their old ways? Or, you know, whatever it might be? What kind of advice would you give to our listeners on, you know, how to get people like that on board? Because from a respect standpoint, you know, you’re not looking to just get rid of people like you, you know, you have, you’re gonna have a mix of people, some people are gonna be those early adopters that jump right down, and then they’re invested there, they’re ready. They’re excited, you’re going to have other people that are going to need a little bit more coercing, and there’s gonna it’s going to take them a little bit longer. And we want everyone to be involved and included. So how, what would be your advice on how to get them on board?

 

Wes Hehn  12:04

Great question. So I don’t know if you’re familiar with John Kotter. Okay, so John Kotter is a leader in change management, right. And so, you know, he has this thought process of, you know, you have 10, people who are involved in the change process, you’re gonna have two people out of that 10, who are going to be fully supportive of changing, right, you’re going to have six that are going to be on the fence. And then you’re going to have, as you mentioned, those two that are just, they’re not on board with change, they don’t want to change, they like things the way they are. You know, so the question is, Who do you focus on? You know, who do you focus on out of those 10? People? I mean, you don’t have to focus on the two, right? Because they’re already they’re already on board. So you focus on the six who are on the fence? Are you focused on the two who are not supportive of change? Just, you know, what do you guys think?

 

Andy Olrich  13:08

So go with it. Yeah, I’ll go with the six to get that, you know, that critical mass moving and you’re telling them to get on board or the other passionate to, I don’t think you would have as much impact is that six have their own kind of wall moving in, but hopefully, I haven’t just embarrassed myself and got it wrong. But, Patrick, what do you think?

 

Patrick Adams  13:28

 Well, I was gonna say, I’m thinking of Malcolm Gladwell, his book, The Tipping Point, and, you know, kind of these different groups of people and how, you know, what are your strategies in order to get them to the tipping point to actually get in involved. And in my experience, I would say, I’d almost want to focus on, I’d want to know what kind of influence that these people have in whatever the area of business that they’re working in, because I’ve had enough stubborn individuals that were in Kaizen events with me, and they had a very high level of influence with the group and with their department. And so I knew that if I could, if I could win them over, and get them, bring them over to, you know, to my side of the fence, that that would have a larger impact than, you know, worrying about someone that’s in the room who is listening and engaged. You know, but they the one that, you know, the influencer was usually in the back with his arms crossed and, you know, not wanting to talk or whatever it was. And so I always make it a point to, you know, figure that personnel and figure out how to get them on board. So I don’t know my answer, I guess would be, I guess I first look for that person and see see who’s more influential, but I think, you know, the people that are on the fence, if you can get them again, I go back to the tipping point. You know, the more people that we can get invested in bought in then the rest will either come or they’ll self select themselves out. So I don’t know if that would give us the answer, Wes.

 

Wes Hehn  15:04

Okay. Yeah. So, you know, you both made great points Cotter subscribes to you would focus on the six individuals who are on the fence, right? So you get them over the fence. But that’s not to mean that you don’t spend effort in trying to get those two that are against change, or come over, right. So it’s not like you just say, okay, you know, what, you’re obviously you’re not into this, you know, yeah, it’s one of those opportunities for coaching, you know, where you pull them aside, and, and say, look, I can tell that you’re, you know, you’re not excited about this change. But you know, you’re, you’re very important. That’s why you’re in this, you know, in this team, and we really do, value your opinion and your expertise. So please, let’s talk about, you know, your aversion to change. And so you do spend some time and some effort to be able to get those individuals on the on the side of the fence of change. However, if that doesn’t work, then then you just, you’re just not going to spend any more time. And it’s obvious that they’re not going to be part of that change process. And so, so the answer is you focus on the six, at least, you’ll have, you know, eight folks that you’ll that you’ll have in support of change. And the two that aren’t, but you’re both right. And, and Patrick, you know, you really want to have those discussions, you really want to still understand, you know, what’s their aversion to change? What’s their influence with the rest of the team, and really try to still to bring them over, but at some point, you kind of have to cut your losses. And so I guess that would be my answer for that, Patrick?

 

Patrick Adams  16:51

Yeah, no, great answer, for sure. I think, you know, to your point, if you if you can get those six, again, for anyone that hasn’t read the tipping point, I mean, that’s the whole basis is how do we get the majority to the point where they’re adopting, accepting, you know, signing up to, you know, the buy in is there, because then what happens is the other people that are still kind of hanging out, once they see the majority has adopted and accepted the change, you know, then they’re more apt to come along as well. Right?

 

Wes Hehn  17:30

So, and, you know, really, if you think about it, guys, I can even think, for myself changing changes is difficult, you know, not everybody is, you know, gosh, I hope I can go to work today, and, and experience some type of change, you know, change is difficult for everybody. But we have to really talk about, you know, the vision and the benefits of the change, and where we’re going, you know, as a result of the change, sure, and really get that buy in. And I think that’s extremely critical to those people, because we’re all humans, right? And we’re all going to have some aversion to change. And so we have to work with that. And we have to understand that and be sympathetic to it.

 

Andy Olrich  18:18

So great. And yeah, we’re really talking about the uplift in culture, right? So getting that culture, right, where people like you said, they buy in, they’re on board. They know, they understand that the changes is difficult. But hey, you know what, I believe that this is probably going to go somewhere that will help and, and I’m in and then as you said, there’s, there’s always going to be a couple, but it just gets hard. And it’s, again, as Patrick touched on this, there’s probably some really good reasons why they feel that way. And we need to explore that. And so when we’re talking about uplifting that culture, Wes, you know, you’ve done a lot of this in, in your career, when you’re looking to depending on whether you walk into a place that has a really toxic culture, or hey, they know that this is their way out of the mess, and that they’re welcoming you in with open arms. What do you think? And can you talk us through some of your approaches around and the structures that you would use when looking to let’s say, if we’re really looking to uplift that culture, you talked about the deployment roadmap, so you know, really taking them on that journey from not finish start to finish as such, but yeah, we’ve got we’ve got to start here. So there’s a full deployment roadmap approach, but then also those ad hoc events where you might come in and run a Kaizen event, you know, or maybe both, can you can you talk us through some of those scenarios and some pros and cons?

 

Wes Hehn  19:40

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, we have created a roadmap. And again, it starts out with standardizing and stabilizing in an organization includes operator Standard Work Leader Standard Work. It gets into job instruction training. It gets into visual manage and it gets into five s, it gets into metrics and or I’m sorry, daily Kaizen, and it gets into metrics and, and a tiered gimble walk, and then it gets into problem solving, right. And then from there, we go into creating flow. And we really start looking at error proofing, we look at value stream mapping process mapping, Kaizen events that actually are a result of what comes out of the VSM. In the in the value stream maps, we look at continuous flow, we look at cell design, we look at Kanban, we look at all those things, right? So if you think about it, the beginning of the roadmap is really to remove, to standardize and really to remove variability. Variability is really the enemy. And we also, at that point, set targets, and we start measuring those targets, and we start, you know, understanding how we’re performing against those targets. Excuse me, and then when we start to fall short of that, we get into some problem solving, you know, then the, you know, the the piece of improving flow, that’s really, you know, now we’ve gotten rid of a lot of the variability now let’s really start focusing on Where are bottlenecks? How can we start? Where’s the duplication? How can we, how can we really start moving, you know, removing waste from the process? And really moving through that through those steps that I mentioned, to improve flow? And really, to answer your question, Andrew, so there are a couple different ways that you can approach that that roadmap, right. You know, I’ve gone into organizations for where the whole goal was to implement lean and do it from start to finish. And for that, we’ve picked pilot areas. And, and we’ve started from the beginning of the roadmap. And we’ve implemented each one of those exits, if you will, on the roadmap to make an area just, you know, go from zero to hero, if you will. And what that does, is you’ve got other, you know, you’ve got other teams, you got other areas, and they’re looking over at that, they’re saying, Wow, that’s, that’s pretty cool, I want to be part of that, you know, I want to be I want to be in that type of an environment. Because ultimately, what you’ll see is firefighting will go down, you’ll start to see, you know, it’s, it’s more rhythmic, it’s almost like a dance, you know, it’s just, it just becomes extremely efficient. But let’s face it, you know, we also have businesses to run, right. And so, we encounter problems. And we might need to interject, you know, further into the roadmap right at, let’s say, a Value Stream Mapping event, which I’ve done several times, right. From that value stream map, we might then run a Kaizen event to improve, you know, the cell design within an area. While we’re doing that, we’ll pick some pieces of the standardized and stabilized portion of the roadmap. Because, you know, as a business, we’re trying to get those results immediately. And so I guess to answer your question, I’ve seen a couple of different approaches and how we can do that. And it all depends on the customer’s needs, right on the client’s needs. Do they want to just start this cultural transformation? And, and, and start off and dig into one area? Or do they really have some problems that they need to to jump right into some problem solving, or some value stream map and Kaizen events and then where it might take us from there. So I hope that answers your question, Andy.

 

Patrick Adams  24:03

Hello, everyone. I am sorry to interrupt this episode of the lean solutions podcast. But I wanted to take a moment to invite you to pick up a copy of my Shingo award winning book, avoiding the continuous appearance trap. In the book, I contrast the cultures of two companies I work for, and though each started with similar lean models, one was mechanistic and only gave the appearance of lean, while the other developed a true culture of continuous improvement. The contrast provides a vivid example of the difference between fakely and truly, you can find the book on Amazon, simply search by name or the title of the book if you aren’t a reader. No worries. The audiobook is also available on Audible. Now, back to the show.

 

Andy Olrich  24:44

Yeah, it’s a good point and like you said what the customer requires, because let’s face it, the Lean certification program I did with you. That was a serious investment in getting people off site for a week. Yeah, for a week at a time over two to one week blocks, right? So in a lot of companies may not have the capacity of the people to pull them out of the day to day for that and might use the immediate improvement as the vehicle to then get people interested and drive. So I feel quite fortunate that I was able to kind of do both. Right. So and as Yeah, I certainly aligned with that. So it’s not a one size fits all, if we don’t do the full roadmap on. Yeah, we’re wasting our time either. Because that that impact in that buy in can lead to from that standalone event, in my experience can lead to, you know, what, I think we should there’s a group here, that’s when I think, you know, we might just take one or two out of that air and run them through that full roadmap, because we see now we’ve got that, again, that carbon, that culture and capability within absolutely a lot more of that. So yeah, thank you for that. Great answer, Wes. Thanks, man. Yeah, and

 

Wes Hehn  25:51

one thing too, I’d have to add to that is, you know, let’s say we do just go in and we run a Kaizen event. There’s always training, right? We always train, because anybody that’s involved in that it can I want them to understand what it is that we’re going to be doing, what are the benefits of it? What can they expect? So it’s not like, we’re not imparting that knowledge. When we go in and just run Kaizen events, it’s, it’s coupled with still training and still developing people. And even any of the ancillary events that come from that original kaizen event. We train on that as well. So there’s a couple of different approaches that depending again, upon the you know, the business need, that we can take in in really implementing lane.

 

Patrick Adams  26:43

Yeah, meet your customer where they are, right. I mean, I love that you that you didn’t say, you know, the, this is the approach we take every time, you know, whether they need it or not, we’re going to we’re going to make them do these five things and implement these 10 tools that worked at this other company. No, that doesn’t work, right. So you have to know your customer and meet them where they are. I also love the model area approach to I’m glad that you brought that up. You know, when you’re trying, when you’re working on making change, like you said, a change is difficult. And a lot of times, you know, it’s a big animal that or a big ship, you’re trying to turn out however you want to look at it. And if you can break it down into smaller chunks and work in one small area, and prove things out and then replicate that across the organization. Sometimes that can be a lot, a lot, a lot easier for the organization to accept and actually go down that road. And you talked about gimble walks, he talked about standardization, right? We need to stabilize first before we can improve. And you also I heard you mentioned Leader Standard Work. And I was thinking about a client that we worked with where that the or the organization or the leadership at the organization felt like, you know, they didn’t need Leader Standard Work, we’re going to delegate the gimble walks, we’re going to delegate the Standard Work audits, we’re going to, you know that that’s something that someone else should be doing in the organization, not us. And so that was a failure mode for that particular client. Because we were like, No, we really need your buyer and your involvement, you know, at every level of the organization. Now, of course, higher executives are going to have less of their time standardized, but we still need to be involved and engaged. So that leads me to my question for us. In your experience, what, what are the biggest failure modes that you’ve had? In, you know, trying to lead lean deployments across organizations? You know, I mentioned the Leader Standard Work and executive involvement being maybe one of those, maybe you’ve experienced the same or maybe you have some other failure modes or or, you know, other ideas around that.

 

Wes Hehn  28:53

Sure. So I do, I think sometimes, you know, you talked about leaders not wanting to be involved in some of the the activities or some of the standard work. I’ve also seen, you know, leaders that are very proud, right. And it’s difficult for them to accept support, you know, they want to be able to handle it on their own. And so I’ve seen that that happen. Other pitfalls? I guess, Patrick, if you could repeat that other pitfalls to

 

Patrick Adams  29:33

when? Yeah, when you’re going into an organization and you you’re deploying lean, however, that may be whether you’re developing an overarching business system or you’re working on in one area of the business as a, you know, a model area of the business. What are sort of pitfalls that you come into during deployment, that might kind of hold that organization back or, or hold you back as it Ultra trainer, you know, what are some of the things you’ve experienced?

 

Wes Hehn  30:04

Yeah, so Okay, great, great question. So I still would say the leaders, you know, having that pride and really not wanting to accept support. Another big pitfall that happens is firefighting, right? So, so people are, are in this mode of firefighting, that’s, that’s how they’ve been, have they been working for years. So it’s, you know, I don’t have time to, to, to, you know, learn these tools into to use a more structured approach to really to get to the root cause, as a matter of fact, many organizations reward firefighting. And, you know, so when you think about it, that that really can derail you know, the implementation of lean, if we’re, you know, continually firefighting, and we’re in that mode, we’re rewarding that it’s not allowing us to stop. And to really, you know, use an approach that’s going to be much more successful, much more sustainable. You know, I guess that you call it whack a mole, right? So a problem comes up, and they hit it, and they go through firefighting, and it goes away. One thing we know is that problem will come back, right, and they’ll hit the next mole, and they’ll hit the next moment, hit the next mole. So I see that probably is one of the biggest interferences that I’ve come across is, you know, getting away from this, this thought process of firefighting, and really getting to the root cause. And even in sometimes even getting to the root cause, you know, I’ve seen individuals say, you know, what, we’ve tried that before. And it didn’t work. Well, there were a lot of things that might have been different at that point in time as well. And so, you know, you can always go by that, that as well. So, yeah, I think those are a couple examples that I’ve seen, when I go to organizations, you know, people just, you know, firefighting, and, and really getting stuck in that mode of firefighting,

 

Patrick Adams  32:18

what’s your what’s your go to strategy for reducing or eliminating firefighting, within an organization,

 

Wes Hehn  32:26

it’s really bringing awareness to what they’re doing, you know, and really talking about the approach that they’re taking, you know, You, guys, look, do, you’re gonna solve this problem today, in bless your hearts for doing that you’re, you’re doing the best you can to get product out the door. But this problem will return and you’ll have this again, you know, let’s take the time let’s stop let’s get to the root cause let’s really understand it, you know, whether it’s going through a five wire, if it’s a more difficult problem, spending the time to do an eight step and have you part of that, you know, and really getting to the root cause and, and making this problem go away forever, you know, and it’s really appealing to them on that level. You know, do you want to continue to battle this you know, now in three months and six months? Or would you much rather this problem go away forever, and really start to appeal to to that. To that, that person in that that train of logic that

 

Andy Olrich  33:37

that there were so like, I’m having really good flashbacks of when we first met and did the training. There were some really key sayings and things that I guess when the light bulb turned on for me. That was that was those things that we were saying throughout the training that was really you know, stopped the line so the line doesn’t stop. Oh, yeah. No standard, no Khoisan, or even had that example of just made it clear that Hey, see that you kick in your own backside? And it was it was it was just like, Yeah, I’m doing that what and that was, that was for me like it probably it’s inspiring stuff. But just having that moment where someone can go hang on, hang on, do you realize what you’re doing you have this you connect with this and that that really drives that why home and again, that’s a lot of the things that I aspire to now when I’m coaching or training others where says some of those examples there is around him. Just putting it in front of them, but in maybe in a different way with a little bit more structure, a little bit more visibility, it just changes everything. And one of the other things I wanted to touch on too and certainly saw in us and I try and model that as well and Patrick as well as is how it’s the little extra things that you bring when you’re training and coaching like you know that extra five minutes after the class to maybe go back over something and or, you know, just that follow up phone call, when it’s not officially part of the role, whether you’re in there leading the training or delivering the training, etc, or the event, I found that really helpful. So Patrick West is the kind of guy that when he does the training, it’s like, okay, 5am, tomorrow morning, we’re going to the gym. And people like, all these little things where it was it was made very clear that this is a, it’s not just about improving the business results, this is about improving yourself. And those deep personal connections, you thread those through. And as I said, that was just something that everybody in that, in that situation said I have, this is different, right. And that was one of the things that I found for that cultural perspective, it wasn’t just from the nine to the five and punch the clock, and you just kind of turn all that off, right? That’s where I found it for that cultural transformation. It’s the little things that matter and getting that personal connection, which, you know, Wes, you know, I can go on and on a bit, right. But I, yeah, I just truly feel that that those real points of difference in those people that show that they care, and whether that’s someone coming in to get that going, or you’ve got people in the organization that are there, and you know, they’ve got your back, I find for that, that’s failure modes around, maybe they don’t see the value in spending the time or they think it’s a cost cutting exercise only in those things. So I find that that’s a real skill. But also, you can tell when someone really believes in this stuff, and it’s contagious. And and that’s that cultural piece. I just, I just really wanted to throw that in here. Because I find that it how did I end up going? You know, I was a maintenance supervisor at the time, right? And looking after maintenance team. I was just like that. That is the way and I actually, yeah, I like UCC, you said you get that energy from seeing people turn the light on, or they do an event. And it’s never perfect. But so wow, that that’s great. I feel good that I know that I’m helping them. So that’s really, yeah, I can’t hammer that home enough. It’s just those little things and having someone that cares, and you know, that it’s really about helping you at the end of the day. That’s yeah, I appreciate you letting me have that moment to, to articulate that. Because that’s, that’s where after that it’s just up and away. And it’s really inspiring. So, yeah,

 

Wes Hehn  37:23

that’s a good point. You know, that relationship between the student and the teacher, right, and having that, that bond, but I’d also like to bring up the fact that now you have peers that you’re working with, and you now have other people to bounce ideas off of, and to call up and say, What do you think about this? And you know, and I know that you’ve used that, as well. And because you’ve brought it up to me, you know, you’re like, gosh, now I have people that I can reach out and, you know, different parts of a different state within Australia, and talk to them, you know, and so it really builds community. And, you know, it kind of to tie back into Patrick’s question about firefighting, you know, I think that, you know, we kind of challenge each other at that point to say, you know, Hey, mate, are you firefighting? Are you really getting to the root cause? So? So yeah, I think, you know, it’s having those discussions about, you know, firefighting and the fact that you’re just gonna continue to deal with this problem time and time again, it’s about the relationship that you have. student to instructor and it’s also the relationship that you have with each other as peers within the class, that help drive home, a lot of what we’re training and really getting away from that firefighting.

 

Patrick Adams  38:53

A lot it. I could hear, when Andy was talking to me, you can hear the appreciation and in his voice around how he was developed and taught, it made me think to last about you as a trainer, you know, when you’re going into these organizations, I know, you know, that you want to build up other trainers in the organization that’s part of your model. How do you teach them that the things that Andy was talking about? I mean, obviously, that’s got to be rewarding as a trainer to hear that from someone that was in your class, but how do you teach that to other trainers within organizations that are going to be doing that when you leave? How do you get them to understand that piece of change management in an organization? Yeah, so

 

Wes Hehn  39:40

a lot of it, Patrick comes just from innate it’s innate in Andy, you know, it’s just innate. He has that passion. He has, you know, he has that excitement when he is supportive and is helping people. Sure I see that as well with other individuals. Um, you know, and that’s, that’s why they do end up stepping up and saying, you know, I really do, I do really see the value in this, and I’m very excited about what we’re doing. And I’ve lived for so many years, you know, firefighting, and not having these tools in place, and I can totally see where we’ve gone off the tracks. You know, and, believe it or not, and you’ve might have experienced this to Patrick, where there’s been other lean implementations that failed, right? So explaining that, you know, this is why this will not fail, right? These if you follow these steps, you can be sure it just like I mentioned, with sustainment of change, leader, standard work, visual management, going to the gamba, you put those in place, those changes are going to stick. And I think that what happens is, you know, the individuals that are in the training, they’re like, Man, I get it, I totally get that now, from my past experiences from the what you’re training right now. And that passion, and that excitement is just innate in them. You know, and from the experiences that they’ve had in the past, and so, you know, for me, it’s really not that difficult to, to instill the passion within the individuals more. For me, it’s okay, let’s work on your presentation skills, and what are we trying to get across? And how is, you know, what’s the best approach? How many examples can you pull in to help, you know, the, the students understand this? You know, per the, per the topic that we’re trying to get across. And so I really, you know, I truly feel that, again, I guess, to reiterate, the passion, you know, is innate, it also comes from past experiences with failed lean, and now they can see that, you know, through this methodology that it’s, it’s going to be successful. And then just me being able to coach them on, you know, the best methods of preparing and presenting the data, or the training to the class to make it to make it real for them.

 

Patrick Adams  42:19

Right. Absolutely. Love it. So we’re kind of closing coming into the end of our time, today. Wes, I feel like we need to continue on because this is such a good conversation, we almost need to do a part one and part two. I’m all for it. I got so many more questions. But Andy, do you have any last questions before we wrap up for the day,

 

Andy Olrich  42:48

not really just more of a more of a, just some reflections again, just on what we’ve been talking about. And always, sometimes find it a challenge for people to feel about this stuff, the way that I do, and what’s the best way that I can get them to get it, but it’s so hard when everybody’s different, but I just want people to think about when they’re listening to this, if you if you really enjoy helping people, and you get a kick out of watching teams succeed. And don’t underestimate how much difference you can make by again, I said those little things like for example, Wes, you know, I was fortunate enough to go through your training program when I was in a really tough time in my career. And it absolutely set me on a path and Well, here I am now in Australia from talking to you, but also, you know, this doesn’t happen without obviously, people like Patrick that again, see something and are passionate about helping others and just building this community around what we do because it’s never always easy, but it’s I just think to people if this is something that you want and you want to you want to be that type of leader like keep going and it’s just so great. Like I said we need to do a part two but I just say thank you guys because it’s you know now I’m trying to pay that forward right I’m trying to work with others and not scare them off with my sometimes over accelerated passion and enthusiasm. But yeah, I just reflect on this conversation and I’d like others to as well as just like I might have what am I doing? Am I How am I being seen by others? If I really want him to get it and understand and be on board? jump straight in with the tools do I say go straight in with a cost thing in mind or is it a Who are you and what makes you feel good one? And do you like helping others so yeah, I just think that’s really why I do this stuff. And Katie Anderson had a great phrase when I went and when she came down here and it was profit is excrement and it was all about you know, when you’re developing people and you’re doing the work. You’ll get all these amazing things happen within the team, that people the culture, and you’ll make a profit, right that’s kind of seen as like the secondary type thing. And that’s, it connects well. So again, thank you. I’ve tried not to. I’m trying not to make this about me. But I just want if people can hear the passion and gratitude in my voice, stick with this stuff, guys, because the magic happens. All right. So Wes, I’m just so thrilled that you’ve come on. And thanks again, Patrick, for making all this happen.

 

Wes Hehn  45:21

And before we before we conclude, is there one thing that I could also pass along as advice when we’re trying to implement lean in an organization that I feel is really important? Patrick, you asked about pitfalls associated with, you know, firefighting, and getting people out of that firefighting mode. Just one of the point I want to make, and it’s something that I had to learn the hard way. You know, I actually had a LEED certification training program in Asia Pacific, it was actually in Southeast Asia. And the participants selection was mid level leaders to frontline workers. And what I learned quite quickly, was that you can train those individuals, the tools, and you can explain to them the, you know, the purpose of them and the importance of them, and how, how to follow them. But if you do not include the leaders, first, it’s all for naught. Right? We learned quite quickly, you know, these, these individuals that were in the Asia Pacific, Southeast Asia Pacific, or the Southeast Asia training course, they came out of the program, they were energized, you know, they had all the knowledge, the abilities to start the Lean implementation, but the leaders didn’t. And so they were kind of stifled, they were kind of shut down on being able to, to really put those skills to use. So something very important that I really want to make sure that I get across is we need to start with the leaders, they have to understand the benefits, they have to understand the path that we’re going to take. And they have to understand how important their support is in the process. So I just wanted to make sure and get that in before we conclude it. Because it’s extremely important when you’re trying to implement lean into an organization. Absolutely.

 

Patrick Adams  47:35

I’m glad that you brought that up, Wes. And it’s a great way to close. And just knowing that that’s such an important and key piece in Lean transformations that the three of us have experienced. I’m sure we can all attest to that. And many listeners can as well. Wes, if anybody does want to reach out to you, if they’re interested to connect, learn more about the training that you offer, or you know, anything else that’s offered through your organization, what would be the best way for them to reach out to you?

 

Wes Hehn  48:07

Absolutely appreciate that, Patrick. So my website is the lean forward.com. So you know, there’s an opportunity to ask questions and that type of thing that will come directly to my email box. The other method is you can email me directly. And my email address is Wes W. E s at the lean forward.com. And I would welcome anybody’s questions anybody’s comments. So please, either one of those avenues. please do reach out to me if you have any questions, comments, or suggestions.

 

Patrick Adams  48:46

Perfect. And we’ll make sure that we drop both of those into the show notes. So if you’re listening in and you would like to connect with West, just go to the show notes, and you’ll find those links, and you’ll be able to connect with him directly. I love our Lean community. It’s funny how Wes closes with just shoot me an email, let me know if you have a question. I’ll answer it. I just love the our Lean community and that just the willingness to share. And, you know, that’s, that’s how the continuous improvement mindset works, right. All of us want to just help each other and continue to improve. So we appreciate that, Wes, and appreciate you coming on the show today and look forward to part two, we’re definitely going to have to do the part two because I got a whole list of questions here that I still want to want to ask.

 

Wes Hehn  49:32

And as far as that lien community go, Patrick, you emulate that probably the best. So thank you for what you’re doing. I

 

Patrick Adams  49:40

appreciate that. Thank you. Well have a great, great day. I think you’re actually in in Africa correct right now. So have a good night.

 

Wes Hehn  49:49

Okay, we’ll do all right. 

 

Patrick Adams  49:51

Take care guys.

 

Wes Hehn  49:52

Nice to you.

 

49:53

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the lien solutions podcast. If you haven’t done so already, please be sure to Subscribe This way you’ll get updates as new episodes become available if you feel so inclined please give us a review

 

Patrick Adams  50:06

thank you so much