Shayne Daughenbaugh  00:04

This vulnerability, it’s an essential trait to great and effective leadership,

Royden Johnson  00:09

because as you go through your leadership journey, first there’s imitation, where you see a leader that you aspire to be, and then there’s differentiation, what makes you unique as a leader. And then once you understand and you have that, then vulnerability becomes easier. Because now that you know what your strengths are and you know what your weaknesses are, you know what zone you move in, then it becomes easier to be vulnerable.

Andy Olrich  00:35

The vulnerability of being comfortable with failure is history, right? If we don’t learn from it, we’re bound to repeat it.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  00:53

Hello and welcome to this episode of the lean solution podcast. I am one of your hosts, Jane daffod, and Andy is also here. Andy, thanks so much for joining us today. How you doing from Down Under I

Andy Olrich  01:05

am, I’m doing great, mate. Everything’s going pretty good down here. And mate, we haven’t been on together for so long. I’ve been waiting for this moment for a long time. So I am super, super excited to be on with you, mate. It’s great to see you

Shayne Daughenbaugh  01:18

again. I am, I am happy to be here. Thanks. Thanks for for joining again this this week, this podcast, we’re talking a little bit about courage and vulnerability in leadership and and I know when we were prepping for this, this story came to mind. You and I, the last we were together was in Muskegon, Michigan for the Lean solutions, virtual for the Lean solutions Global Summit. And I remember we were sitting outside of one of the tap rooms there at night with some other friends and whatnot, and something happened that I was both like, I was wowed. I was I was impressed. I was I was self conscious for myself, like I want you to share, share with our listening audience, some of the sights and sounds that we experienced there when it comes to vulnerability and courage.

Andy Olrich  02:12

Yeah, it was, I’m so pleased that you reminded me of this story. So yeah, we were both over in Michigan, vulnerability and courage. I think part of it was you and I were actually presenting at that conference in going to another country and in a room full of really well known and skilled people to present content that was I had to be vulnerable, and I believe we’re both pretty courageous in giving that a go, and it was going well. But yeah, we’re just sitting at tap room or so Aussies, that’s a bar, let’s say, or a brewery place. And of course, purveyors of land are usually pretty keen on know a bit about karaoke as well. So we were super excited because this bar had some karaoke on. And I always laugh because I think you know, if you’re if you’re ever nervous or you want to see some vulnerability in action, go and watch people do karaoke, if there’s one thing to let the shackles off, and people just get up and give it a go in front of a room, usually people that don’t know, or a few people amazing. So yeah, we were there enjoying the evening, and then this woman got up and she had her child with her, and they got up and did a song. And really the key takeaway for me from that was the child had the mother there supporting that, obviously, sung this song before, and yeah, having them both get up, if that kid can get up there and do it and feel good and have fun, it’s like, yeah, what? What’s holding us back? So it was a really good, powerful moment. We did a bit of reflections on what we’d been doing that day at the summit, yeah? And then, as I describe it, the shimmering orb. Then came to the stage next, and it was just a, wasn’t even a competition, and another woman came up, and she had this red secret dress on, and it was just like, flexing off. I didn’t know whether she was the host or and she got up and just blitzed it. And it was just, again, I was like, Wow, this isn’t even a competition, but they care this much. No one had an excuse not to get up and give something a try after that. So I just that was just such a powerful example, mate. What? How did you go with all that? I mean,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  04:12

it was, like you said, with with the mom and the child, like the leadership of, hey, why don’t you come along with me and do this? Not, you know. I mean, I’m sure that she also, the mother, also encouraged the child to do other things by themselves. But it wasn’t like she just pushed the child, you know, just get up there and you can do it. But, you know, calling them along with I thought that was, that was super amazing and, and I was just, I mean, it was funny to to like they were being vulnerable, but I was also feeling vulnerable watching them, you know, just because that karaoke is not my jam, like I don’t sing well, you know, I have zero moves on the dance floor, but so watching people put themselves out there in such a joyful and just, I mean, they didn’t care. Air. They just belted it out. There’s people singing with them. I mean that that really encapsulated a the beauty of courage and vulnerability. And I’m excited to say that today we have a returning guest, Royden Johnson. You may have remembered him. Believe it was last season, season three, he came on, and we had a grand time. I think it was Patrick and I with Royden had a grand time. So I’m jazzed that that you’re here with us this time. Andy Royden Johnson is a distinguished manufacturing leader with extensive experience spanning diverse industries, including automotive sectors, as a Six Sigma Black Belt, he brings a robust expertise in operational excellence and continuous improvement, and Royden has a proven track record of driving efficiency and innovation, enhancing performance, delivering sustainable results across complex manufacturing environments. And I am very pleased to bring onto the stage here for us. Royden. Royden, welcome to our podcast.

Royden Johnson  06:08

Welcome again. It’s always nice to be on the podcast, and I know I can add a lot of value, and we can also learn from one another. And I’m glad to have Andy as well, my Aussie brother, we would be quite familiar with one another always being competitors on the sport field. So I’m glad, glad to be back with Jane.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  06:29

Yeah, excellent, excellent. We are happy to have you here. Andy, start us off, man, just jump in. Get to know Royden. Yeah,

Andy Olrich  06:37

I love the sport. Uh, tying there, Royden. And yes, we’re on the on the same side of the equator, so it’s fantastic to meet you. And yeah, I will. So we shared a little bit of a story and experience there about something Shane and I experienced together and and I just think, you know, in today’s world, when we’re talking about the courage to potentially fail or give something and try make other people in the room nervous as well. You know, how does that? How there’s walking through that door and not being comfortable? How does that really for yourself tied to the personal and then the broader organizational growth?

Royden Johnson  07:17

Interesting question, and I would always say there’s a precursor before, before vulnerability as a leader, because as you go through your leadership journey, first there’s imitation, where you see a leader that you aspire to be, and then there’s differentiation, what makes you unique as a leader. And then once you understand and you have that, then vulnerability becomes easier. Because now that you know what your strengths are, and you know what your weaknesses are, you know what zone you move in, then it becomes easier to be vulnerable. Because being vulnerable is a huge risk, which means the power to into being vulnerable is having that courage to be vulnerable, knowing that that I might be wrong about something, it does not make me wrong. It’s just I’m wrong about some specific thing. So being vulnerable, it takes a lot of courage, but like I say, the precursor to that is understanding what differentiates you as a leader, and too many, too many times, what makes us what makes it difficult to be vulnerable is we’re still in the imitation phase. We’re still looking at somebody and trying to replicate who that person is, which means you you lose a level of authenticity, and now when you lose that, it puts you in a in a difficult position, because now you’re scared to be to to be wrong. You’re scared to to be vulnerable, because you think that you always have to be right, especially amongst amongst, amongst your, your your followers,

Andy Olrich  08:49

so true and that authentic leadership, yeah, recognizing it’s okay not to know or be at all or be that awesome.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  08:59

I mean, I mean, I mean I need to. I should have mentioned this before, ladies and gentlemen, those are listening audience. You probably should get a pen and paper out for this, because Royden is full of these little nuggets that I love, that idea of you move from imitation to differentiation like you have to start like you have to learn. So it’s not a bad thing to imitate leaders and to get but then what you’re talking about Royden is stepping into my own as a leader. Who am I going to be? What’s going to make me different?

Royden Johnson  09:32

I use, as we talk about nuggets, I call it the I call it the Rafiki moment. So all of us are familiar with the Lion King. So where somebody? Where? Where somebody at this moment with Rafiki, when he said, I know your father. Correction, I know your father. And then they go on that small journey and and Rafiki is challenging him, he said, Come I’ll show you your father. And as he looks into the water, he says, No man, it’s just a. Flexion. He said, No, no, who are you? He’s challenging him like, get your identity and too many times, and especially in this day and age where the leadership industry is booming and there’s so many voices out there that I’ve seen people, especially leaders, stay in the imitation phase so long they don’t know if they’re Elon Musk, if they’re if they’re Donald Trump, if they’re Ellis Jones, if they are Royden Johnson, and then they don’t move into the differentiation phase. And the differentiation phase is what is what makes you unique as a leader. And then you will know that regardless of what comes my way at the end of the day, as a leader, I will be rated now about what my journey was, what was my purpose, where did I add value? I will I will not be rated the same as Andy because Andy was given a different skill set. Hence I’ve like I say, and sometimes it’s scary. And you see, leaders stay in that phase. Stay in that phase, like you need to, you need to understand who you are as a leader and what are you called to do. And once, once you have that, it makes you comfortable to be wrong. It makes you comfortable to go through that door and actually be vulnerable. And I have so many examples through the years, like I, like I like to watch other leaders and thus learn and learn and learn. I call it I call it the Mr. Bean methodology. Your greatest blessing should be your stupidity.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  11:36

I think I remember Mr. Bean. Yes, I think I remember talking about Mr. Bean last time we were together.

Andy Olrich  11:45

And sorry, the second was my greatest asset is my stupidity. Yes, I’m going to use that. I’m stealing that.

Royden Johnson  11:55

In a continuous improvement environment, you have to go to the game but not thinking, you know

Shayne Daughenbaugh  12:02

Right, right?

Royden Johnson  12:05

And many times like, I’ve seen leaders, and I’ve seen leaders like, even if we talk about going to the game, but you go there, and because you have some form of authority, you want to make as if you know it all. So we scared. We scared to stop the operating case. Can you, can you show me how this works? Yes, you might have the degree. Yes, you might have the MBA. Yes, you might know the operation. But, but sometimes you you have to challenge your own assumptions, become a spectator of your own thoughts and and hence, especially around continuous improvement, that that in organizations, we have repeaters. We have repeaters. We have repeaters because we don’t go to the game by wanting to be stupid. The guys aiming to shoot at Mr. Bean. And then Mr. Bean steps in in prep, and he bends down, and they shoot over his head,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  12:55

right? Yeah. It’s funny, because, you know you’re what you’re talking about, this differentiation thing and that time where you’re moving from imitation to differentiation, that requires courage, that requires vulnerability, that requires me being different than Andy, you know, and and not not knowing what others may think around and as you’re describing at these Rafiki moments that we’re talking about here, you know, this vulnerability, it’s, it’s, it’s an essential trait to great and effective leadership. And you’ve kind of already have been playing this out. But this was, you know, my next question was going to be, you know, how can leaders embrace this? So you talked about being able to go to the gemba and and like, embrace your stupidity, embrace that that you may not know everything you don’t have to know anything, everything. Are there other ways that you have seen, ways of kind of embracing that vulnerability as as effective leaders? Or how can leaders effectively? You know, other ways they can effectively embrace that.

Royden Johnson  14:01

Like I say, I like to use real life examples for me, like, I’m a student of leadership, and I don’t think that I have arrived yet at 43 years old, that sky still the limit. So there was this one particular situation whereby we were the market was very volatile. Was my previous employer, and I was still a normal shop floor operator. So then we were going into short time, and different operators was required to be on short time in different days. And that in the company always creates chaos, because people kick into survival mode. I want to work. I want to work. I want to work. Why am I being laid off? And we had this white, white supervisor. And, you know, South Africa previously was very racially driven. So this why many of us, it comes to it comes to us as operators. And he says, Guys, I don’t pretend to know being white, what your social economic background is and what your financial positions are. Yet we’ve been tasked that to to lay off different employees. At different times, and I can just go back and follow the standard and give you the schedule and say, today it’s going to be your horizon, and tomorrow it will be you. However, I don’t understand your financial situations, so I would actually like you guys to come up with the schedule, because I really don’t know how to address this. I cannot relate being white, because I come from a more privileged environment. Right then we went back, and because some of us were still relatively young, and you had your older operators, and as we sat down, some of the guys said, No, but my wife is still working. Your wife is not working. So I would offer up my two days. You can work those days, the youngsters were saying that I’m still staying with my mother. I don’t have a house, I don’t have a car. So you can take my two days. Eventually we came back, and we actually afforded the guys that weren’t in to actually work the short time, and some of us laid off. And I was like, wow, like he embraced his vulnerability. He said that I cannot relate in the situation, our history don’t allow me to relate. So, yeah, situation, I can go back and I can just purely follow the standard, but I don’t think that will be effective, because it will affect the morale. Because now you’ve got a youngster that technically might not need the money, because he’s still in the early stages of his life, yet you’ve got another employee that’s got two children that’s at school, he’s got a hand that he needs to take care of, and it was my first sign of not to be scared to be vulnerable. But hence I say the precursor is, is the identity part, because if the identity part is not there, you will tie yourself, you will attach yourself to what gives you value. And that would, that would put you in a position. It would put you in a position where you are scared to be wrong, because you get your value in being right, you get your value in making the right call. Hence, the identity part is where you walk away and say, Okay, I this one I miss. Uh, fail fast, fail forward. Let’s continue. Yeah, but the guy struggling, struggling with with his identity, is going to labor that point. So why did I miss it? And why this, and why that? Hence I’m saying the identity part. I always make this joke that say I’ve never seen any lion go to raw school. No, any kid or dog go to parking school. So now all of you stand in front you guys are dogs. So can you? So I’m going to train you. I’m going to teach you how to park No, no, no. It’s the identity. Who they are. It comes naturally.

Andy Olrich  17:26

I think that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s such a powerful example. Royden, that’s, thank you for sharing that. And that’s

Shayne Daughenbaugh  17:31

like, that’s like a Solomon moment. I mean, if you, if you’re, if you know, you know, some Bible stories, there’s that Bible story about, about the women who are fighting over whose baby it is? Your leader that that you. He did that same thing. He said, Hey, I don’t have the wisdom to be able to do this. I don’t know how this works. You guys help me and that that’s huge. I’m sorry. Andy, I just just got caught up with that story.

Andy Olrich  17:55

No, I did too, and that’s, that’s the pastor coming in. Yeah, Shane, that’s awesome. Yeah, I and Royden, I just think the Yeah. So that’s self awareness of that leader. And I think that level of trust that that would build from the get go, saying, I’ve got this difficult part of my job that I have to do, right? The what’s here? And then we put the how Help me understand? Can you I don’t, and just saying I don’t even know you, I don’t, and I recognize that, yeah, maybe from where I’ve come from, to you, I can’t connect on that same level. So help me understand and and I think that’s such a powerful example that a lot of people could relate to, or they might be going to work today, to maybe have those times kinds get my words of conversation so, and I love the Mr. Bean tie, and I’ve just got to loop back to that quickly, because what I found fascinating about Mr. Bean was he hardly ever spoke yet. So popular it was all through actions and doing. And when he did actually speak or make a few little mumbles, that was like it would make people laugh. It was so unique. Instead of noise, noise, noise and novel action, right? So I think I’m stealing that as well. That is such a fantastic analogy. So I think there’s been some key takeaways as well, and the notepad Shane is key. So thank you.

Royden Johnson  19:16

What makes it great? Why We Love Mr. Bill is because all of us can relate to feeling stupid at one time. So because it’s an enhance I’m saying, and you mentioned a powerful thing, and I was speaking to my leadership team the other day, especially when implementing any operating system, or if you want to cascade any execute any strategy or plan, we play so much emphasis on content, on content, and getting the content right, and making sure that people understand the content, that we must the connection part. So content, you get through words, you get through verbalization. Mr. B never verbalized anything, yet he connected. Because. It’s in the connection that the content starts to make sense. And you still remember that famous teacher when, when she was explaining Pythagoras, or she was explaining bits and pieces of maths and science. But because she connected, or he connected with you, you can still remember to the exact day what was said. And I think many times on podcasts, especially when I like, I like to study podcast. I like to prepare well. And then you see guys, they are brilliant with content, brilliant with content, no connection. When the podcast is finished, you have forgotten everything. And just just, I’ve been back to to to and you guys say, showing the the past aside. So I’m very I’m a free thinker with regards to religion, having a Jew Christian background, but there’s certain verses around leadership that I like Jesus says now, and this is on the imitation and differentiation part. He says, Whatever I see the father do that I do what he’s actually saying, Guys, I know what it is to lead, but I also know what it is to follow your leaders that can be vulnerable is leaders that were once followers as well, which means I can relate, hence, hence, I have a problem with, with, with, with our culture nowadays, especially the entitlement coming from the university, getting a degree and coming into a senior position or coming into a leadership position. So, so you will never know how to relate being operator myself. I can feel everything that operators going through. So if we are going on short time, or we need to lay off, or we need to ask the uncomfortable questions or uncomfortable commands, or that something that you need to do, hence I was there, so I know when my manager came to me, what did I want to hear with? What expression? How should it be said? So it’s easy for me to relate. Hence, I’m always courses when I study leaders, or I look at leaders and I can’t see the following part because, because, if you’ve only been in positions of leadership, do you know how to follow? And we’ve actually made we’ve actually, there’s actually no difference between the words, but it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a different topic for another discussion. Because to me, a leader is just a follower that happens to go first. Hence, when you talk leadership, to me, it’s a follower that goes first, but the follower makes you loyal to the vision and the mission of the organization, not to himself. Hence it becomes easier if I become the second follower. So, so when people talk leadership, I don’t listen to the word when I hear that you are a lead. I’m sorry this is the guy that goes first, because when there’s a transition, that guy is not is not linked to the title. So if I find myself in in in an organization or in a meeting where I happen to be the first follower, I’m comfortable with it because I transition between the roles. Hence I very rarely call it leader. I call it the follower that goes first.

Andy Olrich  22:57

I think that the first follower, or the follower, yeah, who goes first? I think that’s true, because, yeah, there’s always that moment when someone steps up into another position where there’s that, okay, well now I’ve, I’ve wanted to get here, and I’ve said, I’m, I’m, I can do it now, I’ve got to do it and and then feeling that pressure. But I think again, the way that you that vulnerability is letting it, hey, team, I haven’t done this before. I help me out here. I’m in this. There’s some things that I’m going to bring to the table, but yeah, without without all of you, we don’t really move forward. So I think it’s just the self awareness, the vulnerability, and one of the I very early in my career, I had somebody say to me that, be confident. Andy, you know your stuff, we’ve put you in this position for a reason. I was like, Yeah, I just just haven’t done it before, and I don’t really know all the answers in case something really goes wrong. And he said, Look, confidence is not being the smartest person in the room. Confidence is knowing that you don’t have to be and that has always stuck with me throughout anything I’ve stepped up, it’s like you just just kind of let that go a little bit. And I think it relaxes the whole room, and in particular myself. So yeah, really resonating a lot of those examples and and again, Roy and their real life examples, different different environments where you’ve grown up during a slightly different time over there in South Africa, to what was happening for myself in Australia, let’s say, but yeah, it still connects. So that connection, again, is so powerful. Of there’s a lot of buzzwords that I’ve been joining down here. So think Shane, is there anything you want to follow on for that? Or

Shayne Daughenbaugh  24:35

no, go ahead. Yeah,

Royden Johnson  24:37

a couple of weeks ago, like I recently, joined a wonderful company, and I’ve always been vocal and out there on LinkedIn. And one of our senior senior leaders, John Bucha, we actually make, made contact through LinkedIn and started to check chat. And he’s quite a senior leader in the organization. And when we started to check I was actually amazed. It is vulnerable. Team. And hence I’m saying it’s nowadays, it’s actually one of the most important components in leading effectively, because, because vulnerable, vulnerability creates easier connection, because, because in many relationships, all of us are fearful as human beings. But once you start, it’s like when I start to see your scars, I can easily show you my scars. And there’s nothing that drives like an organization that connects, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s paramount. And as you’ll see, that that vulnerable leaders always get

Andy Olrich  25:47

Shane, if you remember, I’m sure you do my presentation last year at the Global Summit in Michigan. I actually, I was talking Roy and I was talking a bit about Australian culture and work culture. And one of the things that I put up on the on the screen was this, this notion of big notes, so yeah, and how, generally, down here or across here from where you are, we don’t naturally warm to that type of, hey, I know everything. And listen to everything I’ve got to say. And y’all you, you don’t know as much as I do. They come in and they really sort of try and try and take all the oxygen out of the room, for a start. It doesn’t matter how technically smart they are. You usually find a lot of the room will just kind of backing away going, Yeah, you’re not really my cup of tea, mate. We’ll see where this goes. Where if somebody comes in with that again, that vulnerability, it’s like, yeah, you know what? Yeah, okay, I think I might trust this person and immediately feel like you want to help. So, yeah, the big note usually gets, as I said, they might have the answer, but it’s like, yeah, we don’t, don’t really like that approach, so in general. So,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  26:55

you know, I think, I think what we’re talking about here in both these examples, because I have my own examples of some leaders I can think of. I’m visualizing them right now, and I hope that our listening audience is also doing the same thinking of leaders that demonstrated that vulnerability and what, how did that impact you? Because I remember again, the one that I’m thinking about. I guess I can say his name right, like we’re it’s not a bad thing to say he was a good leader, Davy Crockett, like, and not the story. This literally was a man who was my boss. His name was Davy Crockett, and what I in the short time, because I was only with him, under him for about two years, but the short time that I was with him, one of the things that I learned about his vulnerability and leadership through his vulnerability, I should say leadership through his vulnerability, because there were times where, hey, we had it, we had a problem, we had something we had to solve. And his sometimes he had, you know, I’ve been in this long enough, here’s how I think we should go about it. What do you think? And there are other times where he said, I don’t know, like, let’s figure this out together, but that gave me as a young up and comer, that gave me permission to not know, like you’re saying, that gave me permission to try other things, and even if he didn’t like it, because I know some of the things he probably wasn’t a huge fan of, but he supported me because he was more about he was more interested in me expressing the things like you’re mentioning, writing like you mentioned the differentiation. Hey, this is how I’m different. This is how I’m going to approach this problem. Different. He never stepped in and said, Shane, you’re done. Let me. Let me just take it from here, he always allowed that. Sometimes it worked wonderfully, other times it was a nosedive. But having being able to do that, and it was like he let me borrow his courage to try new things in doing so just kind of it grew me as a leader. So it’s great to have some of these examples.

Patrick Adams  29:02

Hello, everyone. I am sorry to interrupt this episode of the lean solutions podcast, but I wanted to take a moment to invite you to pick up a copy of my shingle, award winning book, avoiding the continuous appearance track in the book, I contrast the cultures of two companies I work for, and though each started with similar lean models. One was mechanistic and only gave the appearance of lean, while the other developed a true culture of continuous improvement. The contrast provides a vivid example of the difference between fake lean and true lean. You can find the book on Amazon simply search by name or the title of the book. You aren’t a reader. No worries, the audio book is also available on Audible now. Back to the show, and

Royden Johnson  29:45

I think, I think when I think Andy alluded to it earlier, people confuse vulnerability with weakness, and it’s not the case. Hence, I say I lead. I read a lot of religious books, whether it be the Quran or the Talmud or the Bible, and I like to. To look at the stories, and there’s one interesting story where this sisters, their brother died, and Jesus came late, and as Jesus is walking to the tomb, hearing the brother died, he cried, but then he stood outside the grave of the tombstone, and he called the person out. So he cried, showing that he’s he’s vulnerable, showing his empathetic but then you execute it. I’m here for a job. So So people sometimes confused, like being vulnerable, you’re not executing No, no. Hence I’m saying, like, I like to study leaders so I understand. Show me you’re vulnerable, but then I also need to see that this is how you execute it. Vulnerability should not lower the standards. Vulnerability say it’s okay to make mistakes. It’s okay, that there’s going to be consequences. Uh, ends I was, I was teaching my son, because basketball is, is relatively unknown in South Africa. It’s only for the last couple of years. So, so this new generation globalization, my son is very much into basketball and and I started reading a lot about basketball, reading about, obviously, Kobe Bryant, but there’s this, there’s there’s this coaching, and then obviously Shane, Shane would know, I don’t know so much. Andy, I only read about it about couple of years about Coach K. So Coach K, Coach K is this mantra that he calls next play. So whether you do something good, whether you do something bad on the field, he would call next play. Get out of that zone. Get into the next song. Same with vulnerability, be vulnerable. Get out of it. Go on. Make a mistake. Get out of it. Go on. And some saying vulnerable, the power to vulnerability is obviously courage, because it takes courage, but, but if you, if you fail, fail fast and move forward. I actually met, met a leader about a year ago, and what he said, It stuck by him. He said, if he’s 51% sure, he makes a decision, and then he goes on. And I was like, Okay, it’s interesting. It’s an interesting method. Like, sometimes you’re gonna have you wait and you wait and you wait and then you never get to the decision. So vulnerability puts you in a connection space and courage actually takes you forward, because it’s only through courage that you’re not scared to make mistakes, and it’s only through mistakes that you learn and that and that, and that is how you grow. Hence this, there’s simple examples out there of leaders that were willing to be vulnerable, and at the end of the day, it worked out. So I think it’s actually a paradigm shift where we should not be scared to fail. And as I have grown as a leader, like I say, I’ve become more vulnerable as I’ve grown in my identity, like I say. And there’s a lot of personality assessments out there, like your your DISC assessment, Hogan assessment, corn ferry, and one of my favorites, which is Maya bricks after, after I read my Maya bricks personality assessment, I said, Okay, now I understand myself. Now I know the zone I’m moving. Now I know, and that helped me a lot with my identity. I know there’s some things that I’m not good at, hence understanding myself, because I’m an ENF chain, so I’m relationally moved, so I know that there will be certain decisions that will be difficult for me to make when it comes to when it comes to anything relating to the person. It will always be difficult for me because of my personality type. Yet I need to be vulnerable. But in my vulnerability, I’m also measured against certain results. So I have to make certain decisions. And when you like I say, when you have that Rafiki moment, when you have that identity, no one can take it away from you. So even if you are ridiculed, even if you are belittled, even if whatever happens, because nowadays is probably, is probably the worst time to be a leader, because every Tom Dick and Harry has an opinion about you. Someone just needs a 10 grand worth of data or one gig, and that person hasn’t achieved anything, but yet that person can comment on LinkedIn about Andy. So so ends, I say ends, I say people stay in the invitation phase. And, and if you in the invitation phase and you get criticism, ends, I’m going back to the Bible again. So, so Jesus asked the disciples. He said, Who do men say that I am? They say, some say you John, the Baptist. Others say you Elijah. Others say you. So there will always be a diverse opinion as a leader. Yet one day, one day was the bread of life, the other day was water, the other day was the lily of the valley. So, so, so as a leader, there will always be a diverse opinion, even with the people that’s following you. So if you’re going to look at all that, you’re never going to be vulnerable, if you look at it, you’re never going to be courageous. Hence, in this day and age, I take my head off, or for anyone trying to lead, even coming on this podcast, there’s so many things like, am I gonna say the right thing? Do I look right? What if no one watches? What if there’s someone out there that’s someone out there that hates the Australian so they won’t listen? And like, Why did. You, why did you have Andy on? Because the AUS is this, why did she have riding on the and why did you have Shane on? Shane is a Trump supporter, like there’s so many things out there that you might lose yourself, and that will not, that will not put you in a position to be vulnerable. And when you’re not vulnerable, you’re never going to be courageous, and if you are not courageous, you never going to grow, because you never going to learn, because it’s only through mistakes that you learn. I know, I know I’ve said a lot now, but I like I had to get it off my chest, like people think, hence, I love, I love, I love this environment. I love us being coming on the podcast, but also having a personal connection, because there’s going to be a day that Andy feels down, and that’s the day where Royden sends him on missions, on message, on LinkedIn, and say, my friend, you know you are making an impact with normal guys here in South Africa, guys that never had the platform. I know Shane is going to go through a tip inside. Listen here, stay in your zone. You are adding value. I

Andy Olrich  36:02

think I really like the the time with those you mentioned the formal assessment. So I’ve, I’ve done some disc profiling, I’ve done some Hogan’s, yeah, a few different versions, and I found that really powerful, yeah, to help. I had that moment. I was like, okay, that kind of makes sense. Why I think that way I feel challenged when I’m in this sort of environment. The great thing that did, too, was we were able to look at potentially, where I was more leaning in certain areas, but then to make sure that we position someone who was almost the opposite of that in the same team, like just to make sure that we had that that overall higher average of skills and thinking and ways of working COVID overall. And it was game, absolute game changer in that diversity of thinking. And we’re able to respectfully challenge and but we’d also agree on a lot of things, but that trust thing was there, and we made it very clear up front, so we don’t think the same. We’ve come from different places. But here is a bit of science behind it, and it’s it’s okay if I’m doing this, and just it’s kind of how I am, and we may have to work with that a little bit, or just be a bit more patient with me if we need to go this way. So I love those types of assessments that helps you to be more self aware, celebrate that nothing, no one has the big idea on their own, like we can’t solve challenges just going it alone. It’s too hard, and you won’t get anywhere near where you think you can you can get. So I really enjoy how much this is coming through in this conversation. And yeah, I hope people are connecting with that. So

Shayne Daughenbaugh  37:33

I want, as we’re looking at, I’m looking at the time here, and I want to be cognizant of that. I have a question for all of us, but for you two, I’m gonna let you guys go first, and then I’ll try to, I’ll try to do clean up hitting with this question. But you know, right? And you mentioned making it okay to fail you. I think you said, I think I heard you say, fail and fail fast, right? And that, that premise, or that, that that principle, that idea of, Hey, get out there and try some new things for our listening audience. What are some practical ways, if I’m asking both of you this question, some practical ways that leaders can create that culture of failure so that so that failure is seen actually as growth. Maybe it’s even reframing that word failure you know, reframing it from the negative. Word that you know represents weakness. It represents being incomplete. It represents not enough, all of those, whatever negative can be there. But how can leadership reframe failure to create a culture where it’s okay? It actually leads towards growth.

Andy Olrich  38:43

Royden, please, you’ll guess. I’ll let you go first,

Royden Johnson  38:51

easy one, I’ve developed my own methods through the years. Hence, I learned from leaders. So I would do something like this. So I would go to the game, but knowing that that I’m the operations manager, I want to go to a particular operation, and I would want to see what the operators to me, but then I would deliberately try and do that operation the wrong way so that he or she can stop. He said, No, sir, it’s so No, sir, it’s not all the way you put it in. You need to put it. Sorry, I didn’t know, because I want to, and that’s why I say I’ve developed my own style, because I understand my people. So I create a situation where I show him that I’m vulnerable. He doesn’t know that I know how to do it, but I need to show him that it’s okay to make mistakes. And then I would say, okay, okay, show me okay. I didn’t know that. And many people might not agree with my style, like with the Rafiki moment, I’ve developed my way because I was a operator. I know what a operator, how operator feels now, because we’re very authority bias in in South Africa. So when we see a leader or manager to. It wrong, that guy feels comfortable doing it wrong. Because, because in South Africa, because of our educational system, to get to a managerial level, there’s some, some kind of a formal education that you have to go through. So if the guy from the university can do it wrong, that operator immediately feels vulnerable. So through my years, I’ve done different things to get a culture of vulnerability. And like I would say, I would say like challenge. And then even like I say, I do some I would I would argue and say, I would go to a shop floor and you should wear PPE when you’re touching the product and and I would tell the the operator, take off your glass. Walk without your glass. We’ll do it in the vicinity of a leader. And then I would and then I would walk away, and then the operator would take off the glass, and I would wake and I would come back, and I would ask the question like, What? What makes you what makes you comfortable to follow something that’s that’s a deviation from standard? Oh, be more respectful to the standard than to me. So if I next time I come to you, and then you say, sir, I respect you as a leader, I respect you as a manager, but this is not the standard that we are accustomed to. Hence, I want to listen to you, but I cannot even stand so. Through the years, I’ve developed things that have worked for me hence. Hence. I’ve gone out of the imitation phase. I understand what John C max was. I understand the killers of life. I understand the Simon Sandy Simon, but they haven’t been to South Africa. So it’s, it’s, it’s understanding because, because culture now, culture is the collective personality of the organization, there’s a level of uniqueness, hence I cannot preempt and say, This is what you need to do. You need to you need to get a sense of, okay, where are we now? What do we need to do? How do we change the culture and like I say, I live out the vulnerability. I live out being wrong. I love out making mistakes, and I make it I make it comfortable making mistakes. I think if a leader shows vulnerability immediately, everyone lets their guards down.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  42:13

So what I’m hearing, I heard two things, basically, one was you created you’re talking about creating teaching moments. You’re creating a situation where you can teach something, but you’re also, in this last bit, you’re also normalizing failure and vulnerability. You’re making it normal. You can talk about it, it’s, it’s okay, it’s not taboo. You said you live it out. So, yeah, you’re normalizing it. That’s, that’s fantastic. Andy, what can you add to this?

Andy Olrich  42:41

Yeah, the teaching moment. So that’ll tie into something that I was going to say is, you know, when you have your engagements or daily stand ups, whatever you’re in is, obviously it’s very important to celebrate the wins. And couple of episodes back, Patrick and I were talking about reframing failure in and I actually gave the example of, you know, having that Lessons Learned piece and having that documented that’s kind of putting up there for anyone to read at any time. Things have gone wrong, but framing that around look that we’ve actually, because we’ve documented it, and we’ve had that moment where we can talk about it, then it’s not all, it’s not for nothing, right? So and celebrating that, and we actually had some fun. We actually, I talked about a the golden pineapple award that we gave out to certain leaders to help sort of get us to relax a bit and realize that we’re all going to make mistakes, so that, if you want to check that episode, it’s a couple back, but, you know, I just really think it’s just making it visible, and the leaders talking about it as as a learning if we document it or we capture it somewhere and have the discussion and put your own stuff up there first. Like, try and lead in there and say, Well, look, and today or last week, I did this. Is there anything else from the group? So, yeah, put your hand up first. I think really helps and, and it’s just that whole moment around making it practical, but just visual and documenting it. So, yeah, write it down and talk about it.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  44:03

Yeah. So I heard again, two things. One, you’re leading by example. You said, you know, go first. But the second thing that I think is is unique in your pineapple story, your golden pineapple story is, we’re rewarding learning, not just success. You know, we often reward success, great and great. You You know, you were able to accomplish this goal. You know, we’re able to meet this metric. But we don’t often say, oh Andy, you learned something fantastic. Let’s, let’s reward that as well. Like, here’s a golden pineapple, or, you know, whatever, not to take it too seriously, to to, like, lower that threshold of acceptance of, you know, failure in regards to it being normal, you know, I think, I think both of those are fantastic and and I will wrap up with with one thing, and then I’m going to give the two of you, you know, any last minutes. I also another way to. Reframe is thinking, thinking of failure and vulnerability, you know, those kind of things as a way to collect data like that. Those are data points you’re collecting this, you know, oh, this didn’t work. Well, that that’s a data point. This didn’t work. That’s a data point now, now I have two data points to know that whatever I’m trying to accomplish, these things can then kind of gear me toward a different direction and and approaching it scientifically takes the stigma, I think, out of whether it be failure, you know, courage, those kind of things like that, that stigma of, Oh, these are, you know, failure is a bad thing creating that culture. Let’s take that stigma out by by making, creating it in, or framing in such a way that it’s just part, it’s just normal, it’s just part of what we do. So I have had a fantastic time, gentlemen, and I want to give you, give you guys any last words. We’ll, we’ll go to Royden first, and then Andy. You can, you can wrap us up if

Royden Johnson  45:59

you want to stay humble and you want to stay vulnerable. I always say the moment that you think that you are authentic, when you say or you do anything chance in some dead philosopher. So don’t think you’re the only one that will keep you humble,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  46:16

right, right? Don’t think you’re the only one right on Excellent,

Andy Olrich  46:23

yeah. And for mine, the vulnerability of being comfortable with failure is Yeah, history, right? If we don’t learn from it, we’re bound to repeat it, and somewhere along the line, you can get yourself a leg up for what you might be a challenge that you’re dealing with today. So look back a little bit and learn from those lessons. I think there’s a lot of people who’ve gone through a lot of pain that maybe we don’t need to just if we can take that lesson and learn from it and then add our authenticity and move us forward. So I had someone say to be right, as if you’re saying it, and listen as if you’re wrong, and that will get you a long way to being an effective communicator, but also you are actually open to hearing those unique ideas and in the space of innovation, that’s critical. So I’ve had a blast today, and I’d like to thank Royden and Shane for bringing the magic again, Royden, if people want to connect with you and catch up LinkedIn all those things, how can they get in touch with you? Mate,

Royden Johnson  47:25

usually you’ll see some of my content on LinkedIn as well, the platform I use the most. And like I say, if I’m all open, if I can add value on, we can learn from one another. It’s a continuous improvement journey, taking it one day at a time. Excellent.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  47:41

Yeah. And for those that are listening, Royden spells his first name, R, o, y, d, e, n, and then Johnson. So if you’re looking him up on LinkedIn, that’s how you can find him more easily.

Andy Olrich  47:52

And we’ll have all of the we’ll have links in the show notes, as we do with all of our guests as well. So I really encourage you to reach out. And my key takeaway. Mr. Bean, thank you Royden, thank you Shane.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  48:06

All right, thanks. Have a great day, everybody.

Royden Johnson  48:09

Bye.