Patrick Adams  00:00

Welcome to the Lean solutions podcast. This is the podcast that adds value to leaders by helping you improve performance using process improvement solutions with bottom line results. My name is Patrick Adams, and this season, I’ll be joined by three other amazing hosts, including Catherine O’Donnell from Ireland, Andy Ulrich from Australia and Shane Dauphin ball from the United States Join us as we bring you guests and experiences of Lean practitioners from all over the world. Hello and welcome to this episode of the lean solutions podcast. Joining me today is the amazing Shane daufenbau, who is one of our CO hosts, and today we have a really great guest, a good topic, and we’re going to have a lot of fun today. Shane,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  00:50

yes, just

Patrick Adams  00:50

between, you know, just between us and in conversation here it’s, it’s been fascinating to me over the years to see how lean practices can be adapted to so many different cultures, industries, you know, all over the world. Yeah, and it’s crazy. But you know, for example, what started in Japan, obviously, has taken many forms. And now here we are in the US, and obviously we have our CO hosts, Andy and Catherine, who are at other places in the world, Australia,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  01:19

yeah, Ireland. You were in. Where were you in earlier this year? You were in an Eastern Bloc country, Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan, like, it’s all over the place. What’s going

Patrick Adams  01:30

on? Yeah. So, I mean, just to what do you think makes lean so adaptable and so universal? You know, no matter where we go, it can be applied on the administrative side, on the operations side, in any industry, in any culture. I mean, why is it, why is it so adaptable, so universal? What do you think?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  01:51

I’m not an expert at this, but in my head, I’m thinking it’s going to be the core principles. I mean, the, you know, focusing on the customer. I think that’s universal. Wherever you want to go, if you want to really have good service, you want to have good customer service, you got to focus on what they value, what the customer values. And I will also, I think what stands it apart, let’s say, from like six sigma, is the respect for people, you know, involving everyone. I think those are just some of the core principles. But the other thing that I would say is the flexibility in implementation. You know, tools are incredibly adaptable. You know, there you don’t have to be as rigid. If you want to change your 5s to a 3s you could, you could easily do that. There’s so many things. A Kaizen can be three days. A Kaizen could be, you know, just three hours. You know, the way it can integrate into the culture is, is incredibly flexible, depending on what the company culture is, if they want to go, you know, all in and they’re training everyone and moving forward with that, or if they just want to start with a small group or a division or whatnot. I mean, it can really take shape in regards to whatever the culture is. If you had to pick just one of the Lean principles that you can think of for why it transcends industries and borders those kind of things, which one would you choose? Yeah,

Patrick Adams  03:16

I mean, you kind of hit on it briefly, but really the first principle of identifying value in the eyes of the customer. I think you know it doesn’t matter who your customer is it. You know what it could be an end customer. It could be an internal customer, whoever it is that is your customer that your you know, again, whether it’s an internal or external, whatever work that you’re doing, and you think about who’s who am I doing this for? What’s the next, you know that, and just thinking about what’s valuable to them. And if you have the ability to go talk to them and have a conversation with them and find out what is valuable to them, I mean, that’s ideal. Sometimes we don’t get that, or we get, you know, information from our sales team or marketing team, or whoever it may be, but I think that’s key, is, again, it, I didn’t mention an industry. I didn’t mention a culture. Everyone has a customer, whatever work that you’re doing, you have, you have a customer. And so thinking about it in terms of, you know, what value are we trying to provide to them, and ensuring that it’s not what we think, but what they think is valuable. You know, that’s, that’s key

Shayne Daughenbaugh  04:22

so, and it can totally form or shape or direct how we do whatever service we do, because we’re basing it off of there so that that gives us, yeah, we’ve, we’ve talked about this. We’ll talk more about this. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Yes, yeah, I’m, I’m super excited about today, because if you haven’t, for those of our listening audience, if you haven’t kind of picked up on it, we’re looking at kind of the lean implementation in in another place in the world, from where we typically are. And I don’t know the breadth of our podcast audience, you know how far across? The globe we go, but we are, you know, multinational, but, but today we’re going to South Africa. Ladies and gentlemen, very excited. Bucha, that’s right. Roy Johnson had the privilege of just being able to talk to him just a little bit. I love where his heart is. So let me give you the bio for Royden. Royden is a distinguished manufacturing leader with extensive experience spanning diverse industries, including automotive sectors as a Six Sigma Black Belt. He brings a robust expertise in operational excellence and continuous improvement. Royden has a proven track record of driving efficiency and innovation, enhancing performance and delivering sustainable results across complex manufacturing environments. So Royden, we are super jazzed to have you here. Let’s bring Royden to the stage. Alright,

Patrick Adams  05:51

hello, Royden.

Royden Johnson  05:54

Hello, hello, Pat. Hi, Shane, it’s I’m graced to be here. Uh, thank you for the opportunity, like I say, and we alluded to it a bit earlier, like you guys have added so much value to us in Africa, especially from a lean perspective, and when you know how diverse we are, and access to certain industries is not there, so we rely on some of the content that you guys put out for us to grow as leaders. And I’m a perfect example of that, coming from the shop floor, and only started very late with regards to formal education. So it’s the likes of pet and Shane and Ron Pereira and so many other guys that has developed us. So thank you for that, guys.

Patrick Adams  06:35

Wow, that’s amazing.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  06:37

I love I just want to, I just want, I just want to sit in that moment real quick, because you mentioned my name in a sentence with Patrick Adams and Ron Pereira, yeah, from the Gen back Academy. Like, I’m like, Oh, I’ve arrived almost

Patrick Adams  06:52

right. And what so talk to talk to us about your experience in going from the shop floor to where you are now. I mean, that’s so so and you’re saying, without much formal education, very, very recent talk, talk to our audience about that. So

Royden Johnson  07:09

as we talked earlier. So I grew up in the Eastern Cape, in a town called utna, industrial town with the likes of VW and Goodyear. So we’re very much into sports. So I was, I was a strong rugby player, and actually thought that one day I’m going to make it professionally. However, got injured, and I had to start, I had to start working. So I started at Goodyear as a normal shop floor operator, and was always willing to learn and develop myself continuous improvement. So I was afforded a number of opportunities within the organization to grow one of each being one of being on a leadership development program where I visit some of visited some of our top plants in the world. And it’s only then there I discovered my potential. I’ve been to the states a couple of times, and like I say, with the opportunity and the self development, I grew. I eventually ventured into, I eventually went ventured into lean manufacturing, started doing my black belt and started doing some projects within the organization. And then from there, I just skyrocketed through different levels in the organization. One of the fortunate opportunities like what was actually to do a leadership assessment through Maya bricks, and that’s when I discovered that I’m an ENFJ, so I’m relationally moved. So with regards to people, and you guys were talking about it earlier, it’s all about creating value to the customer, and especially in a country like South Africa, knowing our history, with regards to apartheid and a number of those things. It’s adding value to people. You actually make them come alive when, when they discovered that, with regards to lean, that Lean is so much more than just a philosophy. So this is where my passion lies. And like I say, being an ENFJ, I’m driven, relationally. So for me, it’s all about adding value and and getting that why. And through the years, in my leadership journey, I’ve developed a number of slogans like I always say that we teach what we know, but we reproduce who we are. And when we talk about standards, you need, yeah, we teach what we know, what we reproduce we are. So you need to model the standard that you want to see live out in the shop floor. And like I say, I’ve just been fortunate, and I’ve been seen as an example of someone that can come from the shop floor. And if you know, the history of South Africa, education system is not that strong, with currently sitting with an employment rate of over 40% so so there is light at the end of the tunnel, if you’re not fortunate immediately after what we call matric rate 12 to go and study. There’s other opportunities whereby you can actually go into the workforce. But if you have the attitude of continuous improvement, then then sky is the limit, and that’s why I say. Like, likes of Pat and Ron, and even you saying, like, you’ve added so much value, because there’s no, there’s not that formal setup where you can actually go and do a course in six sigma, or go and do a course in operational excellence at some institution we have to live with what you guys are giving us. And like, I say, I’m a perfect example of how it all came together, and it’s only later on that I eventually ventured into formal education, because obviously within good year, people will know who you are there, but when you exposed to the world, there’s some other competencies that you need to develop as you go. So yeah, it’s a wonderful journey, and on 42 years, I’ve still got a long way to go. But like I say, if you have the mindset of continuous improvement, then the world is is ever evolving. And yeah, so that’s, that’s, that’s my short journey. And, like I say, exciting times ahead as I’m growing as a leader and taking the people, taking the people with me on the journey, right?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  11:00

So, Roy, I noticed you mentioned the word value a ton in that little introduction. Your brief little story there, yes, you know, what is it that you value most in life? Because I know there’s, there’s something there, like you, you it’s almost to the surface now you can hear it the more you talk about and you keep bringing up value and people and those kind of things, but I’d love to hear it straight from you, yeah, what do you what do you value most in life? So

Royden Johnson  11:26

there’s three principles that I actually live by. So number one, respect for people. That’s paramount. Number two, you always have to improve processes, but at the same time, grow people capability and search, you have to deliver on results. And the reason why I package it like that is coming from South Africa. We lean very much on moral authority, and not so much formal authority. But however, to be effective as a leader, you need to have the balance. Because in many cases, it’s actually the formal authority that sometimes also gets the results. So you need to have that, you need to have that balance, and that’s why I package it in that way. And like I say, I’ve got certain slogans and things that I’ve developed through the years. I always say that, that I don’t want to be valuable. I want to add value. Because sometimes we have a paradigm shift as we grow as leaders, that you want to be valuable, and then we become egoistic. And there’s so many things that can happen if, if you don’t keep your feet on the ground, right?

Patrick Adams  12:35

Yes, right. And I love those three principles. I mean, I think about like everyone should live by those three principles. Powerful the I want to hit on the first one real quick, if you don’t mind, and just just unpackage that one, a little bit respect for people. So, you know, I think that in my experience, in working, you know, working for many different companies and with many different companies, one of the things that sets a true a company that has a true culture of continuous improvement, and one that has, you know, what I’ve talked about before, is a culture of continuous appearance, where, at the surface they look like they have it all together, but underneath they got this toxic culture. You know, metrics are in the dumps. You know, their turnovers through the roof. And the thing that sets those two companies apart, the number one biggest thing, is respect for people, the lack of respect for people in the company of continuous appearance. So my question to you is, what’s been your experience with companies in you know that that would be on both sides of that, like maybe a couple examples of companies with that have that true culture and are showing respect for people. And maybe, if you’ve had an experience with companies on the other side of the coin too, I’d be curious to hear that, yes, and

Royden Johnson  13:57

like, it’s, you’ve rightly alluded to it, it’s, it’s the respect part is paramount. And I say in we companies, we usually start at number three. We’ve become so competitive then that when the going gets tough, we started number three. So I always look at and I’ve had, I’ve had instances, instances in the past where I would challenge leadership with regards to respect for people, I have a completely different approach to what, what what you would hear or read in in mainstream. So many people say that I respect pet based on the respect that petty is given me. So that’s not how I operate. My respect for you is not predicated on you. My respect for you is predicated because I was raised by a mother that that you didn’t talk back you you like they said. So, so, so even if you are rude to me, my respect for you is not based on how you treat me. My respect for you is based on what my value system is. So you can come and you can scream and you can do. Whatever, and then I would say, My mama always told me, I’m not going to say anything that’s going to be rude to you. This is how I’m going to treat you, and and, and that has always helped me, because if my respect for you is predicated on how you treat me, I’ll be pulled to your level. And this is where I say, this is where I say from a leadership perspective, it’s paramount, and this is where I say neurologically, it’s proven that there’s, there’s three traumas that human beings go through. If you have experienced that, you can experience anything in life. It’s divorce, it’s the loss of a loved one and the loss of a job. I was unemployed for about 18 months. I’ve lost a parent. So there’s nothing worse in life that can happen to me that I can’t overcome. So if my values is not aligned with the organization, I will gladly pack up and go because, that’s my value system. That’s how I operate as a leader. And like I say, growing up in South Africa, we, we had a toxic leadership style in manufacturing, where, where, where, because of our history, people would threaten and do A, B, C and D, and then that’s why I have a love for the United States. There was one guy that I met in the States. He worked at guru, was quite high up in the organization, and he actually challenged my value system. So when I came back to South Africa, I never wanted to be that leader anymore. I wanted to be a leader at the end of the day that people can look up to. Because I think where we are going now we have, we’ve lost what true leadership is. And like you say, lean is all about, how can we add value? There’s no right. There’s no wrong. In certain instances, I call it, I call it the Jed KUNDO of lean. So, okay, so, so Bruce Lee, now I’m very much into martial arts. Bruce Lee, Jeet Kuno was never designed to be a Carter, so you had your five Carters, but Bruce said that your car is always predicated on certain structure, certain set things. But he wanted jeet kune do to be a philosophy. That’s why I say when you throw water into a cup, it becomes you have to adapt when, when you when you get to different cultures, the philosophy stays the same. But how can I tailor me this lean tool for this culture? How can I tailor me it for this and that’s why, like, I say, I was thinking about it years ago, and I said, What like the JIT condo? So when someone says, What is lean or why isn’t that’s why we would argue, why isn’t it working there? Why isn’t it working there? Why is it because guys, guys, it was never meant. It was all about how, how do I create value? And sometimes certain methodologies will change. Sometimes certain tools will change. If I might use a classic example. And there’s a famous guy in the States, Chris Voss. He actually wrote a book. Never split the difference. Interesting book. And like, especially like human beings, get defensive when you ask why. Now you get to South Africa that has got a history of division, where we’ve got 11 official languages, we’ve got diverse cultures. So when you purely going to go under five, why, you’re going to lose certain people, because that guy gets defensive, because, in the past, he was blamed for everything. So when you start asking why, if your approach is not right as a leader, you will lose that guy, and the tool then will not be effective. And then you ask him, but why we not driving to root cause? Because you don’t have the buying of of the operator. That’s the expert on the operation. You’ve lost him. That’s why I say, in certain cultures, you have to connect before you correct. So this is why. That’s why many lean implementations fail, because we come with the correction part, but we haven’t made the connection. So there’s a lot of things out there. That’s why I say I watch so much of your podcast and I read so much of your content, because I need to understand the Jeet KUNDO. I need to understand what Carter worked, where and how can I come that’s why I liked, I liked the the old kung fu movies, like the jacket chain, the guy would use one specific cutter, and then it’s not working, and then all of a sudden he would come with some drunken cutter that noone knows. So it’s all about, it’s all about evolving for the now, the ultimate goal is, how can we create value to the customer? So,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  19:49

so you alluded to it a little bit earlier, in regard to the history of South Africa. Can Can you? Can you give us kind of a. Walk through of the history of lean and manufacturing in South Africa and how it has, as you just mentioned, adapted to the now where you you know you guys are, I shouldn’t say you guys, your the country, your country is struggling a little bit with 40% unemployment. And you know, you mentioned earlier that you it has been decided to focus on manufacturing. That’s what we need to be about. So how is that? How is that history, and how is that transitions to where you are now, in regards to lean manufacturing?

Royden Johnson  20:33

So as I said, with regards to moral authority, we were very strong on moral authority after we came out of apartheid. So there was a lot of reliance on the political leadership of the time. But as time grew, these guys were not systemic. These guys were not strategic. So So with us being in manufacturing and working for global companies, there’s a level of accountability upwards. You would have global guys coming down, doing audits, doing checks. So we were exposed to a level of strategic thinking. We were exposed to a lot of things that the guy in the the guys in the political space were never exposed to. So when we started now eating rock bottom, then all of a sudden, the paradigm shifted. Say, Okay, right. But now we’ve been without lights for a couple of days now, and it’s every time the same pipe. So then we would start asking questions, guys, the what did we do for containment that we drive to a root cause? The countermeasure that we put in place, the countermeasure cannot be effective if the lights keeps on going off and and, and now there’s a whole paradigm shift. And some of some of my my friends, has actually ventured into the political space, and they were actually head hunted, because we talk a different language now and and we have to say thank you for your global organizations, and we have to say thank you for podcasts like that, because for like like yours, because this is where we sharpened our ex, and now there’s a whole paradigm shift whereby you started hearing the Lean language now in different industries, even, even when I was club president, and the guys were looking at me because we would have standard work. So Mondays, what meetings are we going to have on Tuesday? What are we going to cover? And we’ve got different teams. So, so with my standard work, I made sure that we covered each and every KPI. So, so under safety, it would be injury KPI. So on a Monday, we say, Can I guys, we had 15, five teams playing over the weekend. So who was injured? What is the status, and, and, and that changed the club in a way, like there’s things that you don’t miss because, because lean teaches you apart from, apart from the leaders. It teaches you structure. It teaches you leaders standard work. It teaches you will go to you’ll go to a seminar with Tony Robbins, and you’ll pay X amount of dollars. But the very same thing is taught in Lean, because your routine drives your success, and it drives your behavior. And then we would have someone like Tony Robbins say, get a routine, but it’s something that you will that you will learn in Lean. So we’ve actually evolved a lot, but the evolving was born out of chaos. It was born of out of infrastructure collapsing and falling because, because, and in a lot of countries, we rely so much on aerobic leadership. And I might use a sporting, sporting metaphor, sporting example. So now United States is playing against South Africa, and the United States is leading 1510, and Patrick gets injured, and Patrick goes off the field, and South Africa comes back, and we win the game. And then people will say, you can see, Patrick is a good leader. When Patrick left the field, everything fell flat. No, no, no, no, not in lean that system needs to drive the right behavior, and the system needs to drive the performance. So we had a wrong concept of what leadership is, and this is why our late president, that’s world renowned. You will probably know mister Nelson, Mandela, we rely too much on Heroic leadership, and then then even mandiba. So we need some systems. So he actually got some guys involved. There’s a great guy in South Africa called Clem Santa around scenario planning. So he actually understood that it will not be heroic leadership that would take us there. We need systems. We need processes. We need structure. So this is where we are getting the respect now in South Africa, from a manufacturing side, and say, Hey guys, even from a consultancy point of view, can you guys just come and check what we can do differently? As I’ve said, like two years ago, it we were on horrific state around around electricity, so much so that a lot of the companies threaten to leave the country, cos we would be 12 hours, up to 12 hours without electricity in a 24 hour day, certain plants had to close down and work short time because of electricity, and it. Was only until, until certain organizations started to threaten the day we will leave. We leave the country if things goes on like because this is not sustainable. And then within the organization that provides the electricity, called Eskom, they change the leadership. And a classic mistake we make. So, so with the transition, a lot of the experience we let go. So the amount of breakdowns within Eskom was so massive that that we couldn’t sustain it. They got back some of the old guys. They started to work together as a team, looking at succession planning, how can we grow capability? And then started looking at manufacturing metrics. What’s the mean time to repair? What’s the mean time to failure? It’s guys. They’re in political space. They don’t know what you’re talking about, but yet they’re managing a municipality. So they’re so like I say, the respect has grown a lot with regards to lean in the country, recognizing that, hey guys, we we need this. We need this philosophy. We need we need to create value. Cos, at the end of the day, we will collapse as a country. So

Shayne Daughenbaugh  26:00

Patrick, this, this, this, it’s formulating a question in my head, and and, and what I’m thinking, I’m hearing how, how I’m translating into my head is, it seems like South Africa is very thirsty for Lean right now, like there’s a need and lean is there. It’s like, oh, hey, there’s this structure, there’s this philosophy. There’s this thing that’s helping now I see that I think American manufacturing was there, you know, maybe in the 90s, roughly around there, you know, when lean kind of came into its came into its own. And now it seems like, because the way it was adapted and at times misused, it’s kind of fallen, right? So, so I know that we’re not going to solve a nation’s problems, but now that we’re talking about problems in the world, you know how? How can? What are some things that you believe? And I asked this to both of you, because I think both of you are much further in the spectrum than I am in regards to being lean experts, what are some things that that as a country, South Africa can do to shore itself up and not ride a wave that just crashes, similar to what American manufacturing seems to have done in some areas? I’m not saying it’s completely gone. Yeah, right.

Patrick Adams  27:18

There’s a lot of lot of organizations that are circling back now and applying the principles in the right fashion. But yeah, I think that’s a really good question. Shane, what any thoughts on that writing?

Royden Johnson  27:28

So that’s why I say bet I’m following you and we kind of like a line, because I think within the Lean community, we were part and parcel, contributing towards the collapse because of our confusion. A lot of guys like I say, I always say that, that that I want to be mister bean. Every day I want to be mister bean. East, you put it is his greatest blessing. How can I go into a environment and learn what I learned yesterday to open myself up? But I think so many people wanted to be called experts. I always make the comment, and I wrote a small article for some of my friends. I said that I’m no longer interested in losing black belt. So rather, instead of giving me three black belts in the organization, give me a community of problem solvers, because, because, because we were part and parcel of that and and it all boils down to leadership. The guys that started this never wanted, I always make this example Mandela, when he ventured into deliberating the country, he never said that one day I want a statue named after me. He never said that. His Why was different. What was the why of Lean is to add value. But as time went on, we got bad leaders on board. We got leaders on board that now I’m going to do my thesis, and we’re not going no longer going to have the seven ways. We’re going to have the eight ways, and we’re going to have the 15 ways, and we’re going to 90. This is why I like what, what? Even pet is bringing in the balance and say, Hey guys, I don’t want to get into certain conversations. How can we add value, and how can we, how can we bring this thing back to its original intent? Because it adds so much value in in not only in in all industries, in all industries, if you, if you look at the sporting industry now, certain, certain Lean principles around data, certain Lean principles around visual management. But I think we became so egoistic in wanting our name, read out our name, that that we lost because the guys, it started out, it was all about, how can I create value and at the end of the day, walk, walk, walk away with a system, a process and a structure in place that will still create value long after I’m gone.

Patrick Adams  29:52

Hello, everyone. I am sorry to interrupt this episode of the lean solutions podcast, but I wanted to take a moment to invite you to pick up a copy of my shingle. Award winning book, avoiding the continuous appearance track. In the book, I contrast the cultures of two companies I work for, and though each started with similar lean models, one was mechanistic and only gave the appearance of lean, while the other developed a true culture of continuous improvement. The contrast provides a vivid example of the difference between fake lean and true lean. You can find a book on Amazon simply search by name or the title of the book. You aren’t a reader. No worries. The audio book is also available on Audible now. Back to the show, right. And I’ve worked with I’ve worked with leaders all over the world, and you’d be surprised how many leaders, well, the majority of leaders are in a job for you know, nowadays it’s like no more than three years and they’re being promoted or moved to another place. So that you’d be surprised, how many of those leaders get into a role and they’re like, Okay, how do I make a name for myself in the two to three years that I’m going to be here? What are the things that I can do to make myself look really, really good, and not worrying about the long term sustainment, the long term effects on the company or on the team, or whatever it may be, even, you know, again, I obviously we, you know, I value Six Sigma, and I, and, you know, we teach six sigma principles and we certify people in Six Sigma methodology. But when a company says, you know, well, I want to, I want to have 100 black belts, or, you know, I just need my Black Belt certification for my resume. Like, those are vanity metrics. What kind of impact are they really having on the organization, where’s the, where’s the real, measurable results? That’s what we need to be after, and that’s what leaders need to be after. You’re going to be in this position for three years. How much of a measurable and sustainable impact can you make on the organization in those three years? You know that needs to be the focus

Royden Johnson  31:59

you Yeah, you actually giving me goosebumps. I’ve always been assertive because I’ve been comfortable with my skin, and I’ve always highlighted, especially in the previous organizations that I worked with, with so many experts that come in, those guys are here for three years. There’s no way you’re going to tell me on the three principles, they’re going to start at number one, they’re going to start at number three, because, and this is why you end up in a rat race, because the previous guy left so much damage, there’s not even time for you to start rebuilding, what, what, what? He broke down. And this is why I say like, I like to think about things, and I’m a linguist, so, I’m very much into words. I’m a etymologist like I’m very much into words and and how it’s phrased. So, so even the word leadership only evolved, I think, in the 1400s for me, what leadership means now, leadership, a leader, to me is, is a follower that goes first.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  33:00

Oh, please explain that a little bit more

Royden Johnson  33:04

a leader makes you loyal to the vision and the mission and not to him. So, so tomorrow, so tomorrow, pet was the follower that went second, but now pet happens to be the follower That’s first. Now we, all of us, this is where I sit. And one of my mentors was actually mentored by John C Maxwell as well. And I said, this is where I differ with John statements that we just grabbed on leadership. Everything arises and falls on leadership. We have met the word of so much importance that everyone wants to get that word now at the expense of anything that they compromise. So I want to be a follower that goes first, because that follower makes you loyal to the vision of the organization. It makes you loyal to the mission of the organization. It makes you loyal to the goals of the organization, not to himself. So when I transition into something else, you still loyal to where I left you. And that’s not what mainstream is saying. Because if they going to say that half of the leadership book sales would go down,

Patrick Adams  34:17

right? That’s so true now, writing real quick, though, before I’m trying to cut Shane off before he throws in a question, because I have one. The question that I have is, you know, there’s no, there’s no secret that, you know, executives, upper management, I mean, they’re trying to move up in the company. They’re trying to make a name for themselves, or whatever, whatever, whatever that looks like. What about what should they do like it? You know, because, to be honest, if they’re not doing some of those things that you know, society requires for them to move up in the company, then. But you know, they’re they’re not. They’re not. Maybe they’re not going to hit some of their personal goals that they have, or whatever it may be. Is there a balance? Like, can a leader still advance at a company, do the things that they need to do, be in a role for only three years and still make a lasting impact on the people in that organization? Like, is there a balance, or is it like, no, it’s one or the other you either stay quiet and be a be a follower, or you climb the ladder and, you know, roll, walk over as many people as you can on the way up.

Royden Johnson  35:31

So, so I’m a judo Christian believer, so I’m going to throw a work a spin in the works by asking a question. So now you’re late for work. Yeah, you’re late for work. You can either get dressed or have breakfast, but you cannot do both. You need to choose one and then explain to me, why did you choose that one. So remember, you’re late for work, you can either get dressed or you can have breakfast. Which one

Patrick Adams  36:04

I’m getting dressed? Yeah, I’m gonna, I guess it depends on where I’m going for work that day. But no,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  36:10

he gets angry. He gets very angry. You don’t want to see Patrick without food? You

Royden Johnson  36:15

see how easily Shane answered. So for me to answer that question. So now Shane said he’s going to get dressed. Another question is, why don’t you want to have breakfast? And go naked? Why did that decision come so easy? So now you filter that decision through through two processes. So you filtered it through a priority and through a value. So the reason why you said you’re going to get dressed, it has something to do with your values, because there’s certain parts of your body that’s private that you need to protect and for various other services. The reason why he said you’re not going to have breakfast because you can grab something on the way. So you have treated breakfast as a priority, and you treated getting dressed as a value. So for me to answer that question, I then need to understand what that leader’s value system is, right? Because, because some leaders will treat certain things as a priority, and others will treat it as a value. So your your leaders with a strong value system, will never compromise the value system, because they know they can pick up and go to a different organization that’s more aligned to my values.

37:15

That’s a good point, yeah. But a leader that wants

Royden Johnson  37:18

to get that it it all expenses. He’s going to do number three, he’s going to start with the results. And it all boils down to what is your why, and this is where I say, I give you the benefit of the doubt. I won’t challenge your value system, because that’s you. But this is how I want to live. Some guys want to die the best others in it, and especially nowadays, since we’ve we’ve we’ve positioned certain things that simple leadership, things people don’t remember. It’s anyone that comes in second. And we make all kinds of crazy examples to create a narrative that driving that being the best is the everything is it’s everything that’s out there. And this is where I love, I love lean, because it’s all about value. It’s all about growing capability. And sometimes it comes at the expense of of certain things. And after COVID, we we’re getting a wake up call around being profitable. And this is where you see, if you look at some of the Fortune 500 companies, they’ve been in existence for longer than 50 years. So to answer that question, it all boils down to what the leaders value system is. And if your system is win at all cost, then you’ll choose, he’ll choose metrics over, over a lot of things and and I actually, I actually had the discussion so, so in my previous organization, around five years, because five years wasn’t working, but five years, we treated it as a KPI. I said 5s can 5s cannot be a KPIs or operational efficiency tool, because once you treat it as a KPI, a key performance indicator. When it comes to performance, human nature drives you to certain things. This is where you have conflicting KPIs. And there’s a interesting guy, I think he was Talent Development Manager at LinkedIn. He’s one of the few guys that actually positions it differently. KPIs is also something that you need to think through. What behavior Am I driving? What result do I want to see? Is red result, driving teamwork. Because, like I say, we’ve become so competitive at the expense of our values, at the expense of our morals. And this is where, like I say, with regards to lean, some of the leaders were the biggest downfall around lean and even when you venture into certain platforms, this one is an expert there, and this one is an expert there. But what I like, especially from South Africa, and I always say I don’t see myself, there’s guys, there’s some of my friends that’s, that’s, they’ve got more talent in the pinky than what I have in my old. Body, and that I said to him, guys, what I like, what pet and Ron and the guys are doing is you’re actually opening you, you’re leveling the playing field. Because some of the guys, especially in your in your in African countries, and I had a discussion today with with one of the leaders from Spain, and I was actually talking about about the podcast and about pet and I because we have the thing that it’s only the likers of the world and the Billy retailers, and noone listens to us. But then I said, Guys, if we ever approached some of these guys, because, cause the East platforms, it’s how can we connect? And that’s why I say, I know that this, this conversation is not going to stop here, because there’s some brilliant guys in Africa, and I talk about in Nigeria and a lot of other African countries, and the playing field is level. How can we take this thing to its original intent? And I will always revert, like I say, I like to revert back to some biblical examples. So Jesus died, and and and how many years after he died, the disciples were still only that 1112 but they got a message go out. But I want to own this thing, because if this thing grows, my authority will diminish. If this thing grows, other people will become more interesting. If this thing grows, I might not be the only expert anymore. Similar thing to what happened in Lean. And this is where, like, like, I say, with the platforms you guys are creating, we, there’s, there’s a vibe coming, and you can see, like, there’s a, there’s a paradigm shift to say, hey, let’s, let’s revert back to what this thing was originally intended to do. And to add that is to add value. That’s right?

Patrick Adams  41:41

We, we, I’ll let you go here, Shane, in just a second, but I just want to comment on that, because I think it’s, it’s such an important comment that you made, right? And I think that I’m in 100% agreement, you know? I mean, I think you know us well enough to know that we give away a ton of free content. And the reason why we do that is exactly what you just said, because we can make a difference in this world if we all come together in community continuous improvement principles can our we’ve we’ve been talking about this whole time. They transcend any industry, any team, any culture, any time they can, they can have an a positive impact anywhere that they’re applied. And that’s what our ultimate goal is. I mean, our purpose at lean solutions is to empower and equip people for positive change, and we’re going to do that in whatever way that we possibly can, even if that means giving stuff away for free. Like, I, because I, when we first started, I had actually received messages from other consultants who said, I can’t believe you’re giving away all that stuff for free. Like, we, we charge for that stuff. How can you do that? Like, why would you give that away? And it’s like, I don’t, I don’t really care about that, like it. I mean, you know, of course, yeah, we’re running a business and but everything is comes full circle, and it’s, I don’t give stuff away to get anything in return. It just happens that way. If you have your values aligned properly, and you’re genuine, and you’re, you know, building relationships, developing your network, and it’ll happen, you know, and so that’s our philosophy.

Royden Johnson  43:23

So and like I say there’s there’s guys that’s in more, more senior roles than what I am, and all of us boil down to the same thing I said to them, guys like, we’ve lived of of yours content and and we have grown. And now is the time to actually open doors for you guys to say, hey, Royden, growth, roron and and Pascal, Dennis and pets content and look where he got so. So that opens the opportunity for another Royden say, hey. So this is why I say, I want to create a platform for you in Africa, because I believe it’s all about adding value, and it’s not about wanting to be seen. And this is why I’m just a sucker around divine connections, because, like I say, you can only understand and connect the dots once you look back. So we might not even know what journey we will be going on to we might not know that that the summit we there will be a summit in 2027 in South Africa. There’s certain stuff that we don’t know, because it’s continuous improvement. It’s, it’s ever evolving. And that’s why I say it’s, I’m really grateful. And like I say, we are a strong group of friends in the country, and we will always allude to our journey. And, like, I say, it’s a journey that we can be proud of. And it was all about the content that was put out there and and having the time. Like, I understand the demands of your time, and but you guys are giving the time. So it’s all about, like, I say, it’s all about. It’s all about developing and growing people. And like, there’s an interesting study around the butterfly effect that changes the molecule composition, that changes weather patterns. What you might you might think it’s small, but now I’m telling you, as a South African that have reached a high level within manufacturing. And like, I say, it was not even about achieving the degree. It was not even about the form of education. It’s about taking what you guys put out there and say, I’m going to execute on this thing. I’m going to love it on this thing. I’m going out there so and like, I say, I do have quite a big platform within the country, and I know it’s not, it’s not gonna stop here.

Patrick Adams  45:43

That’s amazing. Yeah, love it.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  45:45

That’s awesome. All right, we are out of time. Yes, I do. Wanted just as someone who you know, looks up to people and understands, oh, that’s how they did it. I would love Royden, if you could give us two pieces of advice that you have for people in Africa or anywhere else around the world that are in the same, maybe the same career path as you but what are two pieces of advice to moving forward to, you know, bringing the value and Bringing the change in whatever way you can kind of that later, that butterfly effect Twitter, if you can, two pieces, no, no. Okay,

Royden Johnson  46:30

I’m going to quote the late corridan Boom. She said that when in the presence of great men, don’t talk, just ask questions, and the second one, the second one is my own. One. Always stay small in your own eyes, although you might grow in others eyes. If you can do those two, I can guarantee you will be successful. The one will keep you humble, and the other one would put you in a position to continue and develop is what I call the high road of learning compared to the low road. So I would, I would, I would feed of people. So when in the presence of great men, Don’t talk, don’t tell how good you are, just ask questions, and always remember you might be growing in in other people’s eyes, I might, I might, I might. I might use a solid example, walking into walking into the plant, and people calling you sir. And as they calling you sir, as I’m walking, I say, Hey, you’re just a normal Royden from and then I would mention the state I grew just a normal Royden from Penguin. Please keep your feet on the ground. And I would be talking to myself, because I’ve seen leaders, and you guys are probably familiar with the Johari we know they don’t even look at it the blind spot anymore as they’re growing. And this is, this is what I like about Lean leaders. We never get to that point, because once you get to that point, continuous learning and continuous improvement stops, right?

Patrick Adams  48:04

That’s right. So true, right? And I feel like we we need to extend this conversation. Obviously, we’re out of time, but I would love to have you back on and maybe, maybe we grab another, you know, maybe someone on your team, or another person,

Royden Johnson  48:21

definitely like you’re making me excited. So some I think we should do that. I’m going to pull in a very good friend, and now I’ll send some of his his details to you. He’s also quite in a quite senior position and in the quality space in manufacturing. So yeah, let’s do that, just to tell you how the friendship started. So I’ve always as an ENFJ, I’ve always been brilliant with people, so we work together for about two years. But systemically, from a quality perspective, he’s just on another level. So he’s not good with people. So he said to me, Royden, I need to talk to that operator. You know, they’re not going to listen to me, because he was quite new, because I’ve got a lot of social capital in sure where I’m staying, because of sport everyone knows me. So then I said, Okay, right, I’ll do that to you. But, but remember, I weren’t good from a systemic point of view. He was actually the one that said to me, you know, we need to go do your black belt. You need to do this. You need to do this. So this is, this is how we balance the scale. And then eventually we became, we became best friends. But you’ll get to know him. He’s brilliant, and like I say, he’s quite high up in the organization where he is being a quality director. So I’ll definitely do

49:35

this. Yes,

Patrick Adams  49:36

let’s do that. We’ll, yes, we’ll reach out, we’ll get something on the calendar, and then let’s extend this conversation. Because I felt like we got pretty deep on a couple things, and I know our listeners will really enjoy this conversation, but I think they’re going to be hungry for some more, which you agree?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  49:53

Shane, no, yeah, yeah, it’s I got. So there’s so many nuggets, so many. Now just unpack any of these.

Royden Johnson  50:03

No thanks. Thanks. Thanks for the opportunity. And like I say, especially being from South Africa, being from the African continent, thanks for opening up the door. I know sky is the limit. And like I say, I’m just one of how many, how many 1000s there’s like I say, I must have been. There’s always someone better, greater, more intelligent, more smarter than me. It’s all about creating that opportunity for that person as well. And like you said, Pat, it always comes full circle. Yes,

Patrick Adams  50:33

always does well. Thank you again, Ryan. We We appreciate you being on and we’ll, we’ll chat with you here again on the next episode.

Royden Johnson  50:41

Thank you very much. You too. Stay blessed and stay safe.

Patrick Adams  50:45

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the lean solutions podcast. If you haven’t done so already, please be sure to subscribe this way you’ll get updates as new episodes become available. If you feel so inclined, please give us a review. Thank you so much.