Shayne Daughenbaugh  0:00  
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the lean solutions podcast, led by your hosts Catherine MacDonald and myself chained off in Bonn. Hello, Catherine, how are you today? Hi, saying

Catherine McDonald  0:42  
I'm very well. Thanks. How are you?

Shayne Daughenbaugh  0:44  
I am very well, yes, very well been working on a lot of things going on. I am sure you are as well, I'm watching you post all kinds of stuff on LinkedIn, it's very cool to see some of your interactions and stuff. So that's, that's really good. I'm glad to see that. One of the things that is kind of top of mind for me, and I want to use this opportunity just to again, remind our listeners of the lean Solution Summit. I'm looking at my calendar right now, coming up in September 24 through 26 had to make sure I had those dates, right. In the beautiful lakes, or the beautiful shore of Lake Michigan. The thing that I'm really excited about that I that I want to talk about here, just really briefly, is a lien bootcamp that we're doing, basically, well, not basically yellow belt certificate, that is something in addition, you can add on to your ticket. And here's why I love this because my wife and I went to the summit last year. And might one of the feedback that that my wife gave some of the feedback my wife gave was, this was great material. But there's an assumption that everyone knows at least some kind of basic information about Lean. So what about the people that are interested, but don't have any haven't really begun or maybe just started their journey with Lean. And so this year, in the spirit of continuous improvement, we are presenting a yellow belt certificate that people can get it is limited seating. So we ask that if you're interested in this and you're thinking about going, it will be part of the registration. So please jump on board with this. Because it's going to be a great thing. Okay. All right. And now for the other commercial. I have a very serious question for you, Catherine. Here it is. And I want all only serious answers. For you. Question for you is what's on your refrigerator.

Catherine McDonald  2:45  
What's on my refrigerator right? At the moment, what I have is one one piece of paper. And it is the cleaning schedule for my two boys. It is what they have to do every day. Why? multiple pieces of paper and schedules and rosters and all sorts because you know, kids in sports and activities, but no, it's all taken down. And there's one very important piece of paper what you have to do every day. So this is a new thing I'm trying with them. So I have to make very, very clear. So it's their most days on unless they take it off. And I put it back. Okay, excellent. Excellent.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  3:21  
So on mine I have I have a couple of different but one is very important and as the week's menu, so we're probably knows what we're eating, possibly a shopping list to go along with that. And then the other things that we have right now because it's you know, it's summer for us. It's a wedding invitations, like whether I'm being invited or whether I'm supposed to be officially officiating at that. That's what's taking up, especially when they you know, they're sending them almost in almost eight by 10. Now, they're big, big wedding announcements, they're they're taking up a lot of a lot of real estate. So here's here's the behind the question here, here's, here's what's behind it. Oftentimes, I think, I think what what is on a refrigerator, is a reflection of what is important to us in life. And, and this ties in here, stick with me for a minute, this ties in to today's discussion with our guests, David, it ties in because as as both as, as owners or as consultants or you know, lean practitioners, and as possibly like vendors or clients, those kinds of things. Each of us have, what you could call, you know, things on our refrigerator, we each have things that are important to us. And without having an awareness of what is important to the other. I think we really miss out on some communication. And we're, it's gonna be a little more choppy and trying to have a good relationship. You know, and, and kind of keep things flowing with that. So, so to bridge into that. Here, here's here here's kind of the intro for what's about to happen, because I'm very excited about our guest here. And I have a quick question. Have you ever wondered what designers and builders really think about their clients? Or why it even matters? David Scott has spent several of the past years asking vendors in the construction industry, the following question, why does it matter, to be a good client with the perspectives of over 50, consultants, contractors and project managers in the construction industry to explore the significance of being a good client, he sheds light on how client behavior impacts cost, schedule, quality, you know, there it's a it's a great find in here when I found this. This is a Jim Davidson. I'm happy to be holding your book for right right now. But we're very excited to have you here. Great. Catherine, tell us a little bit about a little bit about David for those that may not know him.

Catherine McDonald  6:01  
Yes. So we're here today to talk about the effect of client and we're going to be joined by David screwed us and David is the Director of Design Construction and maintenance at the Mile High Flow district overseeing a team responsible for delivering over $100 million worth of infrastructure and maintenance annually across 1600 square miles in the Denver Metro area. So with over a decade of experience at the district and nine years as an engineering consultant Dave holds a Bachelor of Science in Civil Engineering from the University of Florida and is a registered professional engineer, certified floodplain manager, l e. D accredited professional and Toastmasters competent communicator. He authored the effective client and he co hosts the podcast, middle aged wisdom with his wife, Nancy. So welcome to the show, David.

David Skuodas  6:57  
Oh, thanks for having me.

Catherine McDonald  6:58  
Yes, it's great to have you here.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  7:00  
I did. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Katherine. Oh, I

Catherine McDonald  7:04  
was just going to say how are you? Oh,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  7:05  
oh, great. Great.

David Skuodas  7:06  
Sorry to make you read all those acronyms and accolades and a mate. Oh, that amazing. This? Oh, wow.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  7:13  
Where do I start? Now? I'm going to start at the bottom. I didn't know that you were a Toastmaster competent communicator.

David Skuodas  7:19  
I might have been my proudest one.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  7:21  
Yeah. That's that's impressive. Excellent. So David, the today's question also stands for you, is open for you to answer what's on your fridge. What came to mind when we asked that question?

Speaker 1  7:33  
Oh, my gosh, my fridge is full of all manner of things. And I don't I won't bore you with like all 15 of them. But, you know, my daughter's school calendar, which pretty much dictates our calendar is a big one. I'm pictures of nieces, nephews and our daughter and things like that. But that kind of two more amusing things on there is one is there's like I live in Littleton Colorado and Littleton has this calendar they put out each year and they have a photography contest. And I one of my photography is made it in his February. So my wife clipped out February and posted it on the fridge. So that even though it's you know, June right now there's right winter, really pretty winter scene on the fridge. And then the other one is, we have this gift exchange at work where you can kind of steal guests from each other. And the one I ended up with was a sticker collection of Golden Girls stickers. You know, I have like Blanche and Sophia and Dorothy and rose like stickers on the fridge. And I'm pretty fond of them.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  8:33  
Excellent. Excellent. So you didn't you didn't put that in your bio. Golden Girls sticker collection. Yeah,

Speaker 1  8:41  
I want to dazzle people with just keep it in my back pocket and boom, you know.

Catherine McDonald  8:47  
Now we know a lot more about you just not what's in your bio.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  8:50  
Yeah, that's right. We know it's a fan of Golden Girls. Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. Well, David, let's get into the thick of this here. So the effective client, a pretty it was it was an easy read. It was an interesting read. Um, there's a ton of stories and applications. Can you just share with with our listening audience? Hey, what are some of the main themes of the book? What motivated you to write it in the first place?

Speaker 1  9:20  
Yeah, well, I mean, the, this was really my attempt to take this, this whole Old School idea of customer service, and the customer's always right, and sort of flip it on its head and think about, you know, what makes somebody a desirable customer and the three most basic themes I was able to find through all those conversations, you mentioned that I had, you know, really, this stemmed from just really a curiosity around that basic question of why does it matter to be a good client and just through talking to people, you know, once you really got the conversation going, people shared with me really freely and I just heard some really great stories, but I found over time that they boiled under three kinds of basic themes of building professional trusts, paying barely and punctually and then managing risk equitably. So if you want to be a good customer in the AEC, industry, you have to have all three of those, you can't really be missing any one of them. And really why I wrote it the so I worked for a flood district. And in 2013, there was this massive Colorado flood, it impacted like a quarter of our state just damaged roads, bridges, utilities, homes, it was just really, really chaotic. And so in the aftermath, I was really heavily involved in recovery efforts. And it was this environment where anybody with an engineering scale or an excavator was in very high demand. If there was any semblance of the recession, it was gone officially at that point. And I was really struck by how valuable our long term relationships were, by how much our really trusted consultants and contractors really answered our calls, when they were getting an awful lot of phone calls. And for the most part also kept their pricing pretty even it wasn't like anybody was gouging us. And I was just really struck by that. And it kind of led me on this sort of curiosity kick of why why does this matter? And in which ways does it matter? And how should that inform how we do business and try to get, I don't know better pricing, better work. Have more fun doing it, too? I mean, all those things. Right. Right.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  11:30  
I love that idea of partnership, in long as you said long term relationships. Right. Right, you know, keep continuing something this isn't kind of a one and done. But that you mentioned relationships. Yeah, it's yeah. It's

Catherine McDonald  11:46  
back to basics that, you know, business is built on relationships. You know, I think sometimes we forget that. It's, it's so true. Everything you mentioned there in terms of pricing and getting more work or frequency of work. It's about your relationship with the clients, and they'll only have a relationship with you. They see your value and you deliver on some of the things that you mentioned in terms of keeping your promises and trusts and all of that. So relationships is so key. Yeah,

Speaker 1  12:14  
well, and I, the business I work in it's, it's really my job to keep building projects year after year. And so it's really in my best interest that people want to work with me. And it's not in like a manipulative or inauthentic way. It's like, I really care about that. Because it makes the projects more fun. And we get we attract the best talent that way to the for the people that want to work on our projects.

Catherine McDonald  12:43  
Yeah, yeah, I got that for sure. And what is it? What are the specifics? Like? I'd love to know more, David, about the kinds of behaviors that are involved here. So for anybody listening, I mean, that makes sense. Yes. In terms of what what we're seeing here with, with being a good client and and type of things, we said yes, build trust, have relationships, for what, what does that translate to day to day, week to week, you know, with, between clients and on?

Speaker 1  13:11  
Well, I think it can manifest itself in all sorts of different ways. I think, with professional trusts, you know, there's aspects of trust, that are personal aspects of trust. And then there's parts of it that are really necessarily personal. And I think in a professional setting, for people to have trust with each other. You know, the, the three ways they break it down in the book are competence, accountability, and benevolence. And so, for me to trust you, I need to trust that you know, what you're doing, that you have experienced to do the job reliably. Okay. So there's nothing interpersonal about that. That's just based on your own skill set and wherewithal. And then there's accountability, you know, doing what you say you're going to do if you said that you pay somebody's bill or sign a contract or get them review comments in a timely fashion that you do that. But again, that's also not an interpersonal thing. That's where the benevolence part comes in, is it also matters how you make people feel. And you know, a lot of the not much of what I just described has anything to do with process or paperwork or procurement delivered project delivery processes, it's, it's it's more on a human level, so that the trust part in particular. And so one of the one of the examples I I bring up in the book is, you know, about the how you make people feel things. So, when you're in the ownership role, you have a very heavy impact on the culture of a project and the degree to which people really feel free to share ideas, even the crazy ideas like well, let's just see if this sticks, you know, sort of thing or whether they're reluctant to bring it up. And so, one story from the book was, I was in a progress meeting, and we've got this. It was like a half mile long. stream restoration project and a bunch of trails and road and there's gonna be a train station and all this stuff going on on this big site. And it's long conference and Taylor's probably 12 of us sitting around it. And the landscape architect unfurls this like eight foot long roll plot. And it's full of all these symbols of trees and shrubs and skellies Latin names in the, in the legend of what they all are. And they're asking if we have any input on the planting plan. And I just kind of look at this. And you know, I'm an engineer, not an not a landscape. ecologist, and I, and I'm like, Oh, man. Yeah, I'm like, it looks good. And I just kind of wave my hand over the plans. And like, yeah, it's, it's good. I'm sure. It's fine. I trust you guys. But then I sat there for a minute. And the meeting was carrying on and I said, Leila, wait, I'm sorry. Actually, I do have a few questions. And, you know, because vegetation can get really big, it can clog the flow of water and can prevent access to the creek, you know. So anyway, I started peppering the team with questions. And then meanwhile, the guy next to me, who's also on the ownership team, also an engineer, he really didn't want to keep on this topic, and just kind of got annoyed with me. And so to my left, kind of over my shoulder, I see him do this. He goes, Oh, just I mean, like, right, not exaggerating, he just like, and it's, it turns out, though, it's a guy I know really well. And we just kind of give each other a hard time really freely. And I just kind of look at him. And I'm like, Dude, you're right. I mean, can I may I continue, you know, I just kind of breeze down past it. But the funny thing that happened was, even though it was one member of the ownership team, giving another member of the ownership team a hard time. After the meeting, one of the consultants told me, he said, you know, actually, I wanted to really talk a little more about that planting plan, but I wasn't going to bring it up after I saw her you were made fun of. And so it just, yeah, there's all these different little nuances and subtle ways we can have our project teams be either function better or worse, even just on these little things that have nothing to do with process or payment or contracts, or any of that sort of traditional black and white stuff. Yeah,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  17:13  
right. Right. And I think sometimes it's so easy when, you know, as you're saying, if you're in the middle of the board meeting, or the middle of the meeting, to be thinking these kinds of concepts, you know, in in the lean. In the Lean environment, lean industry, we call that respect for people, you know, and we emphasize having that respect for people which you were sharing with them. So um, I know you you didn't, you didn't say this, but in my head, this is what I was thinking. You were giving those horticulture those landscape artists or you know, architectures, you are giving them respect by not just dismissing all the work that they've done, you have eight feet of plan, you know, down to this little scale. And for you to just kind of wave your hand over it might seem a little bit dismissive. Yeah. So it's, it's super interesting that you stopped and said, No, hold on, let's engage with what the work that you have done, because I I trust that you've done you're competent in this. Yeah.

Speaker 1  18:08  
Well, I think, you know, I framed it around. I'm an engineer, I just, I'm just not sure I'm gonna have comments on it sort of just sort of like knowing, knowing my my place a little bit. But, you know, my fellow engineer just wasn't interested. And the funny thing, though, is, later on, you mentioned that, on the way to the meeting, he was listening to some news story, and it was maybe about a shooting at a school or something. And it just kind of, you know, it impacted his kind of mood and attitude as he walked into that meeting, and it kind of came out was sort of scoffing at my, my question asking, but right away, so it was kind of a nice lesson learned for both of us. And we laugh about it now. But it was pretty, pretty memorable experience of just kind of the impact and owners can have in particular.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  18:58  
Yeah, yeah. So So going off of that. My question for you will offer that is, how do you believe building this professional trust really can contribute to creating more respectful collaborative work? I mean, it that seems in my head, that seems obvious, but can you can you flesh that out? In your experience just a little bit? Yeah,

Speaker 1  19:21  
I mean, I think that story paints a really great picture of it. But I think, you know, regardless of any contract we signed, people have so much discretion, a contract can't describe every single thing that could come up on a project. So there's always going to be a whole lot of discretion that organizations still have and individuals still have over how they're going to handle gray areas that might come up or, you know, how trusting the environment is, you know, really they're going to share ideas, like I said, but when it comes to contracts, it's something that can be used against each other, you know, and we can get into this In a sick twisted game of using the contract against each other, if we're in this really untrusting environment, that can happen pretty easily, but I think, you know, as as the owner, I like I said, you really set the tone for how that team is going to behave, and just you have an outsized influence over it. And so I think people need to see, need to see and not just be told about how you want it, because you know, culture isn't what you put up on a piece of paper, it's how people see you behave, and act and treat each other and all that sort of stuff. So I think, you know, so much of it stems from the owner and what they demonstrate.

Catherine McDonald  20:37  
Yeah, it sounds like, David, just something to consider is the initial, I guess, expectations, you mentioned the contract a lot. But just in my mind that that is really about the agreement you make with people in the beginning, you know, before you start working with them. So each being clear on each other's expectations, I guess. And I feel that that doesn't always happen, as it should I feel that that stage is sometimes lacking that sometimes, you know, owners will take on people and they won't look deep enough into that will they won't have a deep enough conversation about that. And I think that can get businesses into trouble and clients into trouble. So I don't know if that's your experience. But that's my experience that that initial kind of agreement doesn't happen and doesn't happen effectively.

Speaker 1  21:24  
Are you taking them as sort of the unspoken agreement of how we're going to behave?

Catherine McDonald  21:29  
Yeah, like there's a contract, and it's legal, and it has all these terms, but who reads that, you know, in depth, I mean, an actual meaningful conversation about expectations and behaviors and what I expect from you, when you expect from me and to actually talk it out? You know?

David Skuodas  21:43  
Yeah, well, I mean, it's interesting, you bring that up, because I, I have found it interesting, how valuable it can be to vocalize some of these sort of rules of engagement, if you will, and here's how we want to operate and actually calling attention to it, and be really valuable. And it's, and it's interesting how much people will then honor that, at least in that particular meeting where you brought it up, but doesn't really pay forward to the next meeting. So you might have to bring it up again, depending but, and then. And then the other interesting thing I find that happens is not taking that project culture for granted. In that there's there's going to be different faces that pop in and out. And projects for me these days tend to take about five years from inception, initial funding, and hiring a designer to we've actually built the thing, it's, it's typically around five years. So you're basically almost forming like a temporary organization to build this project. And you're gonna spend a lot of time together. But then, you know, once you get through design, now you get to construction and a whole bunch of new faces show up. And they did not get the memo about the sort of kumbaya we've all been trying to experience for the past four years, or whatever it is. And so there definitely has to be intention around. This is how we want to work together. This is the environment we're trying to cultivate. And we want to carry that through into construction. And that's what we expected people and, and it really takes just one person on the team. I mean, everybody's experienced this, especially if you play sports, but you can have a team of 10 or 12 people in one. And if one of them's you know, it only takes one to take things sideways and make it unpleasant for everybody. So There's

Shayne Daughenbaugh  24:05  
a lot of things rolling around in my head. They are but I can't seem to get them to come out. So so the next question I have so we've been talking about trust, but you said that there's three themes to your book. So you know, what, how might some of these other themes apply to areas? I mean, it makes sense for, you know, payment, prompt payment. It makes sense for trusted all those things that you mentioned, it makes sense in the AEC community architecture, engineering and construction in case you didn't understand that one. But how might it apply? How have you seen this apply in other ways? Or or share some more stories about how that applied and maybe Katherine and I can say, oh, yeah, I've seen this or that.

Speaker 1  24:55  
Yeah. Well, I think these themes can apply just for anybody that needs goods and services on a continual basis, regardless of industry. And particularly if you're in an environment where you're going to be doing the meeting needing to rely on these others on a continual basis, you don't have endless choices about who you're going to get to provide whatever this is. And it could even be in your own organization, it could be another department where you frequently are needing things from, for me, a couple of easy examples might be finance or admin. I mean, probably 90 to 99% of our interactions are me needing something from them, or them needing me needing them to do something for me. And you know, payment and risk may not come into play quite so much. But certainly professional trust, because they have all sorts of discretion about how promptly they're going to respond to things I want or need. But an interesting other example I'll share. So my, my wife's a dentist, and so she has a dental office and the dental field, she has all sorts of external people. She has her own business, but she relies on a lot of external people for all sorts of different things. She's got a website, person, she's got labs that that make crowns and dentures. She's got a guy who comes in and fixes or equipment because there's just so there's just a crazy amount of equipment and infrastructure in a dental office. She's got an IT guy comes in and all that technology has to talk to each other. And so I was trying to just kind of was laughing one day, she had this, this dental maintenance guy come in, that's come in to fix something right. And she's worked with this guy for probably 15 years, they have great relationships, she's really made him feel very valued and appreciated, no paid fairly, all those sorts of things. She's She's made him feel valued for what he does, because he's great. And there's not a lot of this guy going around. He's like the Yoda of fixing dental equipment. And so anyway, what happened was, he was at our office fixing something, and he gets a cell phone call from another dentist. And he looks at it. And he's like, nope, like, and. And so there was this clear sign that the relationship he had with this other person wasn't great. And he chose, and of course, he was meeting with my wife at the time. But he was like, No, I'm not answered that. Right? You know, so it's just kind of this, people have a lot of discretion, and it just doesn't, it doesn't pay to be a jerk. Especially if you rely on these external people really continually, it's a big deal. Another way it came up in her and comes up in her industry is, so she's a general dentist, she refers patients to specialists at times. So it could be an endodontist, for root canals, it could be an orthodontist for braces, whatever it might be. And she's had occasion where one of them might say something to a patient that makes it sound like they disagree with what my wife that the advice my wife gave the patient and it just like totally undermines her in some way. And that just like, that's that sort of behavior just makes her well, now, I'm not gonna refer my patients to you, because you're just not watching out for me, right? It just these principles kind of apply all over the place when you start looking for him, which of course I do, because it's just kind of wired into my brain. Now.

Catherine McDonald  28:25  
I don't know if you know Toyota's story, but I don't know the ins and the outs are people who can probably crack me on this. But I know that that was what Toyota did back in the days. So they obviously manufacturing, they had huge issues with their suppliers. Now they were working internally on their own processes, and they were getting things sorted. But then they got to the stage where our problems are not just internal, they're also with our suppliers. So what it used to be conflict, and they used to be obviously like looking for new suppliers. When things didn't work. What they actually did was they reached out to their suppliers, and they changed from this kind of conflict approach to this collaborative approach. And they actually worked with their suppliers on their processes to help kind of understand what processes would fit everybody. It's even as simple as what time do we drop the deliveries? And where do we drop the deliveries to to make it easier for us to make it easier for you. So they started working on all of this. And I still see that in manufacturing today, I still see that that's an issue with conflict, particularly because there's so many big manufacturing firms, so many different suppliers. And really, I love this idea of collaborating, reaching out working in partnership with these people to understand what can we do that will benefit you and benefit us. And I just think that has to happen. And your story reminds me so much of that. And it's still so important, I think really really is because we're so dependent on them.

Speaker 1  29:47  
Yeah, I mean, Toyota could have been like, Well, we'll find another supplier but I can't imagine there's endless people that can supply the sorts of things that Toyota might, might need want or need and and your best interest long term. All

Shayne Daughenbaugh  30:01  
right. All right. So let's talk about about that. Katherine and David, it equitable relationship. So we've talked about trust a little bit. But but in your book, you have a whole section on kind of risk, equitability, you know, sharing the risk, but also sharing the benefits. You know, all of that. Can you talk a little bit about that in your professional setting? David, what that looks like to share risks to have these kind of equitable relationships that we're in this together, like you mentioned, Katherine, that collaboration?

Speaker 1  30:39  
Yeah, yeah. And that's where all these, you know, trust and risk and fair payment, and all these things, they're, they can have a lot of overlap. And they're not always clearly really distinct from each other. But one example that I that I share in the book that I think is a really interesting example of where managing risk in a way that is fair in both directions, in a way, it can just really save you a bunch of money and not be wasteful. Because generally, you know, the contractors, when when you develop long term relationships with builders, one of the beauties is that and the agency I work for is has this advantages that contractors want to develop the relationship with us to because we're a consistent source of work. And so they're incentivized to want to pursue that next project from us. But it doesn't mean they wouldn't still be, I don't know, remembering something that happened on the last project that might affect how they might price the next one, it just, it's just human nature, and it's just smart business. But anyway, so working along waterways, a big aspect of the work that can have a lot of uncertainty is dealing with water, how much water we're going to deal with. And, in particular, when we're dealing with older parts of town, they might have contamination, that sort of thing. And so I had this project where we were tunneling a storm drain under the interstate, and under a big highway. So it was, I think it was about a 54 inch, four and a half foot tall pipe, tunneling under the interstate. And in an area of known groundwater contamination, and I just as an owner, it just wasn't something I dealt with before. And so our initial sort of take with it was, well, contractor just give us a price for just one lump sum for dewatering. And dealing with the contamination just just give us a single thing, single price. And this was on I think, like, a $2 million project. And I don't know what both of you What would sound like a big number to you to spend on pumping water out of an excavation and then treating it before discharging it on a $2 million job. Well,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  32:48  
in a $2 million project, I would say at least a quarter of that $2 million, at least if not more. would sound like a big number. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

Speaker 1  32:58  
I'll just go that's the exact number they gave us. They said $500,000. Yes. That's where I was going. Yeah. And I would say, Well,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  33:04  
hello, hold on. Timeout.

Speaker 1  33:08  
Oh, yeah. I was like, why is that $500,000? Because it's not paying for the pipe. It's just paying for this temporary stuff they have to do. So it's very unsatisfying. So anyway, they said, Well, Dave, you asked us to give you a single lump sum price that guarantees we can deal with whatever happens. And so we're comfortable, we can do it for that. Okay, well, what might be the least expensive version if we thought a And what might that entail and, and so they said, Well, if we bring out these certain pumps, we know we're going to need and then we're going to have a little bit of a treatment train. Because when you pump contaminated groundwater, you have to treat it before you discharge it. And that's the least expensive system, they said was $125,000. And I said, so let's do that. But But the kicker was, they had to trust that if, you know, they're pumping and treating, and they're not meeting the levels that needed to that we would then allow a change order to add other treatment features. And that's what ended up happening. They started with $125,000 they had all these weird tanks that are these bubblers they get this stuff to settle out. And then they they ended up needing to bring in this aeration device to add more bubbles. And that was like 12,000 bucks. So we ended up at like 137,000 which what could have been 500,000 And so this sense of being equitable with them, being fair with them, having trusts, you know, saved us like it would have cost triple than they ended up costing and it's just kind of a really good example of being equitable, being fair. I just wanted to pay them for what they did and not for what they didn't and they were totally fine with that. Because you know, if you kind of take a swag and what that's going to cost one of us There's gonna miss one of us is going to miss out, either they're gonna get paid more than they should have, or they're gonna get paid less than they should have been either way is not the best environment.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  35:11  
Yeah, that's Yeah. So what, what I'm hearing in this, as it's translating in my head is, hey, there's a risk, they were telling you there's a risk that we have this plan, we know will mitigate all risk 500,000 If we do this there's a risk, are you willing to join us in this risk really is what they were asking you by doing this? You know, if if we do it this way? Yeah, we'll probably get it. But there's a risk of maybe not, will you join us in this risk, so that we can, you know, take care of this as best we can, you know, the trust is already there. And a we trust what you're going to do, they have to trust you that, that they're going to be okay with that.

Catherine McDonald  35:55  
You know, where else you see that in industries, it's like training and coaching industry. So if you think about it, so much money is spent on training and coaching employees and organizations. And what can happen is, if organizations don't spend enough money on it, they just spend the basics and they do the basic training, that I guess the trainers come along and say, well, we'll do the training, but we can't guarantee it will have any impact unless you do the follow up work. And you do the mentoring and the coaching and you make sure that the training is put into practice. Or we can stay in and we can, you know, continue on with the coaching, we can help with the project and all the rest. But companies, a lot of companies will say no to the help. And they'll say they'll do it themselves, but they're not properly set up for it. And then it's waste. So what you're saying makes so much sense across so many different industries in terms of risk management, and knowing and trusting and having that initial conversation and both parties understanding the element of risk and having it out and really understanding what that means. That's fantastic. Yeah,

Speaker 1  36:53  
yeah, I think having a good sense of value, you know, what, what's going to be the right value out of a different situation, I think, from a process standpoint, I'm, I am lucky to work for a place where we have process setup that empowers me to change at amend the contract easily. So I don't have to, you know, when we started at that $125,000, I have a lot of empowerment to add that 12,000 to the contract without having to go to like a city council or town board and do this big rigmarole just over this simple, fairly simple thing. I'm empowered to use professional judgment, which is, which is a really big, sort of cultural and process thing that really facilitates this kind of environment to get the most for our money. Yeah.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  37:45  
Yeah. Excellent.

Catherine McDonald  37:46  
So here's a question, shall I jump in here, you can get the next

Shayne Daughenbaugh  37:51  
take a catch and go? What What would your advice

Catherine McDonald  37:54  
be to, let's say, subcontractors, or people who are, I suppose, trying to get work trying to get more work trying to, I guess, develop what you were talking about in terms of those relationships? What would be the top three pointers, I guess, to help these people understand how to get work with more? So hold on to work? Hold on points. I know, we've already talked about a guest all the basics, but what would you say that just top three pieces of advice would be?

Speaker 1  38:23  
Well, I think I guess there's kind of two ways that jump out of my mind is one is there's a sort of duality. One is process and one is the, well, I'll put it this way. There's kind of the distinction between partnerships and partnering because partnerships are like a contract we sign. But then partnering, that's kind of the, the the verb, like okay, then what sort of actions do we take as partners and so that that part tends to be more interpersonal, and cultural. And so I think both things tend to matter. And this is more from the clients perspective, I guess. But for other sort of owners out there is developing processes that allow really great environments for collaboration to happen. And just as an easy example, low bid, construction, contracting, does not create, facilitate an environment for people to get along, it really just kind of creates a little bit of a game, from the outset of really trying being cheap, you know, saying the only way we're going to value which contractor we pick is on which is the cheapest. So that's an example of a process that doesn't cultivate a great environment. But then the partnering aspect of it is every bit as important and that kind of gets back into the professional trust and equity and the human side of things and, and how are how are we cultivating psychological safety, and all sorts of things. And it matters for everybody from the owner to the project manager to the inspector and anybody who touches a project because everybody can impact Is everybody else's sense of psychological safety on a project team and their, their sense of risk and all those sorts of things. And so I think for, you know, subconsultant, he started off with sub consultants and subcontractors was where he sort of started with it. And I think, you know, people who are prime contractors, GCS, they're essentially a client to because the subs have a choice of which GCS and primes they want to work with. And prime contractors need to understand the importance of these issues as much as anybody else. And I think for sub consultants and subcontractors, they're going to find who they like working with pretty quickly. And it's going to come down to a lot of these issues I've been describing. Because it even relates to, you know, with workforce, that was definitely a common thing I heard when I was writing the book, and I've heard it even lately from contractors is, if they put their people in a situation with a client or inspector, whichever, where they feel like they're in an abusive environment, they lose people, because people that work for them feel like they gotta stay on this project till it's done. And they'd rather just quit. And so actually lose people. So it's, it's in your interest to keep keep your workforce to stay really fully staffed, is to make sure your people are being put in good environments with who you're asking them to work with.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  41:27  
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna, I want to I want to wrap this up here, because I, we have been going, it's been great. I got one more question for you. And it is about workforce. So it's interesting, there's a seeming, I don't know, if it's a trend, I'm really not smart enough to be able to pick up on this. But there's definitely needs out there. You know, in the AEC industry, there's the skill, and the workforce seems to be changing, and even the demographics, you know, we're we're shifting from people who have done this all their lives for long periods of time, huge amounts of knowledge, industry knowledge and all of that. They're transitioning out, we have new people that are transitioning in can you give for the last question here? Can you give kind of the the importance and specifics of this, this idea of being a good owner that you talked about? How the importance of that, how that changes, even with this demographic change that that we're seeing this shift?

Speaker 1  42:28  
Yeah, I mean, it's, everything I've seen is talking about demographic changes long term, generally being that populations are going to be going down, in general, in many places around the world, and just based on birth rates, right. And so if you're gonna get a contraction in the workforce from that, I'd couple it also with, I had a contractor telling me recently, you know, he's got all these superintendents of these grizzled veterans superintendents been around for decades. And he said, every single one of them is has their kids in college, and is pushing them away from becoming construction people like them. And so you get this sort of interesting shift to where, you know, just getting back to that idea of scarcity, like really, the best designers and builders are going to become more and more of a hot commodity over time. And so these issues, whether we care about these issues, as owners, they care about us, they really do and owners, we're in competition with each other for attracting the best and brightest to want to work on our projects. Every bit as much as employers are competing for the same talent pool for employees. It's every bit the same. And so many agencies I've talked to, you know, we asked them, have you bid something and gotten 00 bids? Pretty much everybody says, Yeah, and that's a very real thing. I mean, 15 years ago, we would get when when I used to do things as open bids, we would get 810 bids pretty consistently. And that's just not the world we live in now. And I don't, I don't have anything telling me that that's going to get any better. So if it's in your business model to design and build things, then it's important to start caring about this stuff.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  44:15  
Right, right. I can really appreciate that. Yeah. And it's,

Speaker 1  44:21  
I'll give just one quick example, I had a contractor telling me if I was looking at opportunities, project opportunities with two adjacent communities, and one had easier paperwork. I'm gonna go with one with these, your paperwork can be just as simple as that, like, you know,

Shayne Daughenbaugh  44:36  
yeah, that's, that's what's on their refrigerator. Easier paperwork. That's what that's what's important to me. That's what I'm looking for.

Speaker 1  44:44  
Right, right. I mean, they don't want to have on their refrigerator refrigerator like this whole Rolodex of stuff they got to do, just to do really basic things that another owner doesn't require of them. So that's kind of soul crushing type of stuff. Nobody wants to do that.

Catherine McDonald  44:59  
You But again, that's where the back end matters. It's a case of asking, you know, what do you like? How do you like to work? And sometimes we don't ask, we don't know. And we don't get feedback then to improve our own processes. So it is important to, to reach out and have those conversations. And I think what you said just in terms of, it's just so important to make people feel valued. You know, that's the whole part of it, and people will stay and will continue to work with you if you feel that way. So, yeah,

Speaker 1  45:27  
I mean, empathy is pretty much never the wrong answer in any situation in life. It hasn't hasn't gotten short shrift in construction ownership circles, so

Catherine McDonald  45:38  
Well, it's always a balance, isn't it? Balance, empathy, with assertiveness, and, you know, the direct piece and the expectations, it is balanced. But empathy has to come in there. We don't mean, yeah, I mean, we're lost, we have no relationships.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  45:52  
Okay, great. I really appreciated David, you spending some time with us and talking about this. In what what I've appreciated most is, is simply you're giving us a different perspective on something that we talk about all the time. You know, in our, in our industry, we're talking about respect for people, we're talking about trust, we're talking about valuing other people. And in some of those, those are just core principles of Lean and Toyota, as Katherine, you know, was talking about mentioned at the beginning, and you're giving it a different spin, you're giving us a different perspective to go, oh, yeah, so it looks, it can look even even even expanded into hay, how we treat those who work for us, you know, having not just respect for, you know, maybe inside the plant for the people that were, you know, that are under us, but, you know, our, our suppliers, our vendors, all of this, there's, there's a, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna wrap it up with with a phrase that you talked about at the beginning, long term relationships is, is what's getting us through is what's really the important thing that's, that that has to be on the fridge of both the client and the owner, you know, long term relationships, the benefit of those mutually beneficial going together. Catherine, any any last thoughts? No, the

Catherine McDonald  47:12  
spot on chain? Absolutely. Right. I think that's key. And then just having the discussions not forgetting to reach out and have those discussions and not just see people as a contractor are as a type of people, you know, people love to people. So bringing the human aspect into all of this is hugely important. And you've made some really good points on that, David, and giving really good examples of how you can do that in those particular sectors. So well done. Super.

Speaker 1  47:35  
Well, thank you for having me. I've made me picture. I should have a picture of my entire project team stuck up there with Golden Girls.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  47:46  
Over Yes, I love it. I love it. I love it. Well, David, where can they pick up a copy of the the effective client? And where might they be able to if they have other questions, they want to ask you directly. What where's a good place to reach out to you?

Speaker 1  48:00  
Yeah, it's a it's available on Amazon and Kindle and Kindle. And then I have a narrated version on Audible. I like to say it's a really good short book. So the audible version is only like three and a half hours long. So it's pretty, pretty quick read. I do have a website. It's the effective client.com. And then, but I am very active on LinkedIn. So people are interested in following me on LinkedIn. I post some things about the topics of the book, I post a lot of things about working in water, that sort of thing.

Shayne Daughenbaugh  48:32  
Excellent. David, thank you so much, really appreciate the insights and the energy that you've brought to this conversation. Thank you, everybody, for for listening. We look forward to talking to you again. Good afternoon. Have a great day.