Patrick Adams  

Welcome to the Lean solutions podcast where we discuss business solutions to help listeners develop and implement action plans for true Lean process improvement. I am your host, Patrick Adams. Hello everybody and welcome to the Lean solutions podcast. Our guest today is John Thacker, Jr. John has two decades of experience working in supply chain including managing factories, regional distribution centers, tier one automotive equipment, manufacturing, building trades, food, pharma and consumer goods. He’s done everything. John is also a host of a quality podcast alongside Jake Harrell. So welcome to the show, John.

John Thacker

Hey, thanks for having me on, Patrick.

Patrick Adams  

Absolutely excited to have you. Obviously, being a fellow podcaster. It’s always fun to exchange stories and talk about equipment and challenges and things like that. Lastly, two, three weeks ago, I had Jay carillon who’s you know, co host with you on a quality podcast. And he gave us his side of the story. I’m curious to hear your side of the story on what actually happened with a quality podcast? What was the motivation? Where did it come from? Why do you do it? What’s your side of the story?

John Thacker  

Yeah, so a quality podcast started on my back porch, smoking cigars, and drinking whiskey and just, you know, shooting the bowl about everything that happened at work, and, you know, different operational theories, what might work here, what might work there. And at one point, I think it was Jake, who said, you know, I wish there was a quality podcast out there that just talked about these things. And so the name of the podcast is a little bit of a joke, a quality podcast. And so our motivation, or at least my motivation, we see, you know, some podcasts out in the space, we were looking to sort of amplify that by creating an experience for people that, you know, is laid back hair down just cigars on the porch kind of conversation. And so that’s what we do. We’re not trying to, you know, be the experts in the room or be super technical, we really want to be accessible and fun. So that people learn in school subjects that are fun. I was pretty good at it and the ones that were boring. I didn’t do so. Well. That’s my motivation for the quality podcast.

Patrick Adams  

Oh, I love that. And I obviously know the backstory of you guys, I can I can envision you guys just sitting together on the porch smoking a cigar and and just the conversation, you know, and how that came about. So very cool. Just to hear that. And obviously, you guys have done a great job, had some great guests on and, you know, have done amazing work with promoting lean to communities all around the US and even outside of the US. So thank you for that. If anybody is interested to go check out a quality podcast, where can they go to find the podcast.

John Thacker  

So the fastest is just go to YouTube, type in a quality podcast, John Beck or Jake Carroll. And it will come up, we’re right around to the number of subscribers where we can actually change the URL to something custom. And then I’ll have a better direction from now. You’ll have to search for it. as well. You can go to John Packer jr.com. I’ve got a tab on there for the podcast.

Patrick Adams  

Nice. Okay, so our goal as a lean solution, community lean solutions, podcast, all of our listeners, we have to go out there to YouTube, find a quality podcast, subscribe to it so we can get you guys over that number in two custom URLs. Yeah, that’s our goal. So thank you, John, before we dive into some of the questions that I have for you, can you give our listeners obviously, I gave a very brief background and all the different areas that you’ve worked in different industries and companies. Can you give us just a quick overview of your experience in Lean Six Sigma operational excellence?

John Thacker  

Yeah, so I actually started my career in college, I went to school for software engineering, it didn’t take long. I’m not good at sitting behind a computer screen all day. I like people. I like to move my body around. But to pay for school, partly, I was working at a book printing and distribution center. They were kind of right next to each other sort of, and I got to see like behind the scenes and I think that was the first time I realized that people made stuff that I consumed and getting to see the nuts and the bolts and the grease and the electronics and then we bought this automated conveyor line that they built in Korea and then disassemble that shipped over here and reassemble. I just thought it was super cool. And right after college, I jumped into Walmart logistics, and I kind of stayed in manufacturing supply chain and logistics ever since. And of course I have an interest in mechanical stuff, I have an interest in physical things. But what really kind of opened me up, I guess, was watching the people doing the work and realizing, hey, I can help you, I can help you do that for less sweat equity. Right. And right around the time that I was getting my MBA, I had a wonderful mentor. He was the president of the National Black Caucus of engineers, double master’s degree, smart guy, and I was young and dumb, and aggressive, and everything else. And he kind of took me under, under his wing, but he had this Lean Six Sigma Black Belt and these certifications. And he just started talking to me about the theory. And he had managed the Ford plant, Louisville, Kentucky. And so he got me started on the journey and introduced me to a certification program that I got through that company that I was working for at the time. And it just opened up a whole new vista of opportunity to help people there, and kind of merge and technical with management and leadership, which, you know, is kind of what CMS is, right? So that’s kind of how I developed in my career. And, really, that’s what drives me, I just have a love for helping people win and create more value for less effort. And as I tell Jake, and he put in his book, how can I get more of what I want and less of what I don’t want for the least possible expenditure of resources? I like that.

Patrick Adams  

That’s a great definition. So what would you say from an operational excellence perspective? How do you, let’s expand on you know, that definition and talk a little bit more about, you know, just based on your experience? What do you feel operational excellence does for companies? What does it mean to you? What’s, what’s the benefits? You know, maybe just talk to us a little bit more about, in your experience, how you would define that?

John Thacker  

Yeah. So, as I’ve worked with individuals and companies, I’ve come to understand operational excellence as starting with being able to recognize what I want more of? And what do I want less of? Right? So really, the definition of TPS, lean, and operational excellence, I think are the same, like, if you accept the standard definition of operational excellence, it’s just a generic version, right? Leave, but the sort of the nuance of my experience, you know, that my experience is added to that is understanding there, there is a lack of clarity, in most situations I go into, on what do I actually want more of? And what do I want less of? And what I’ve found is that the business structures and incentivization ones, whether they’re formalized or not, in many companies aren’t actually aligned with what the company wants more of, or wants less of. And part of that just stems from a lack of clarity on what those things are.

Patrick Adams  

And I would also add to that, once a company understands what is valuable to their customer, you know, that that can help maybe put some clear expectations around what they want more of and what they want less stuff, right? I mean, having a clarity around value for the customer value for the end customer, it seems like that would be a good way to help create that clarity. 

John Thacker  

Right value value, stream pool, all of that. methodology that we love, is designed to do that. And I’m not super educated on history and background, I just know what I’ve done and been taught. Good. Speaking with Professor Bob Emilioni, he was talking about the Shinki, Shingo jujitsu approach lean and mentioning that my approach to value discovery was congruent with what they taught. Well, I didn’t know that. But apparently, there’s there’s different methods or ideas here. But what I learned was, as you focus on removing waste, the things that are valuable, manifest themselves. And so they kind of took a little bit of a backwards approach, instead of defining value for the customer. First, you just start with what you’re doing and start removing the waste. And you’ll start to realize pretty quickly, because you’ll have to ask questions. Well, why do we do that? And internal and external customer requirements? Manifest kind of as, as we did?

Patrick Adams  

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it’s pretty clear. If you understand waste. Obviously, in the Lean world, we know that whether you look at the you know, seven wastes or eight wastes or whatever the amount is right, if once you understand it, you can see it, you start going after it. I mean, that’s pretty clear, you know, as far as what waste is. And to your point, once, once that happens, and you’re starting to go after waste, it becomes very clear what what’s valuable versus what’s not valuable, right, the non value add is the waste everything else, you know, changing the Fit form or function of a PART part, if you’re in the manufacturing world, you know, no, understanding what the customer is willing to pay for, you know, those are the things that you’re obviously not going to strip out of your process. But I think also, you know, thinking about for the, for people in an organization where I like to always ask the question like, what, what frustrates you what gives you headaches, you know, at the end of your day, and you that you say, man, if we only we can get rid of this? If only we could know that that’s another way to think about, you know, how do we want to go home at the end of the day and say we had a good day, right? Not like, oh, my gosh, this was such a terrible day. So much stress, anxiety, frustration?

John Thacker  

Yeah, definitely. Or, or how can I go home with less blisters? Right, if we, if we’re taking care of the emotional and physical well being of the employees, that frees up their creative capital, right to to help the business, as well as just being a decent sort of thing that there was a leader, right?

Patrick Adams  

Absolutely. Well, and that’s why respect for people is so important. When you think about the Toyota Production System, we talk about TPS, you know, respect for people is obviously super important to them. And there’s a good reason for that, right? When you take care of your people, when your people know that when I come to work with 10 fingers, and I go home with 10 fingers, like that’s a good thing. Like, they know that as a company, they know that we respect that and we want you to be safe. And you know, that’s obviously that that changes the dynamic, especially for, you know, right now, where there’s so many companies that are struggling to even to keep people at work, or to get people to come to work, you know, making sure that you have a safe environment and people feel respected. I mean, that seems like the basics, right. But unfortunately, there’s a lot of companies out there that, you know, don’t put a lot of priority on that. And people know that. And, you know, unfortunately, that leads to high turnover.

John Thacker  

Yeah, what got you here won’t get you there, there’s been a change. Right? And we’ll probably have case studies and books about it in a few years.

Patrick Adams  

Absolutely. So John, what gaps? Have you seen, you know, that you would see in companies that are striving for operational excellence? Where would you see the challenges and the gaps in companies that are on a journey, and they’re moving towards operational excellence, in your experience with the different companies that you’ve worked in? What have you seen?

John Thacker  

Well, I think the biggest challenge that I’ve seen, probably because it’s difficult to deal with, and quantify and identify fish and water type of thing, is the attitudes and culture in companies that are striving for operational excellence? See, we build a company and we’re creating a culture that has cultural baggage. And sometimes I’ll work with leaders, sometimes it’s a brand new leadership team. They’re like, we’re gonna change the culture. And if you think of culture as the sum of what we say, Do they feel while we’re at work, they’re speaking differently, they’re behaving differently. But they forget there’s cultural baggage that doesn’t go away. As long as the people who are there are doing the work. Remember the past. That’s something that has to be addressed. And I’ve found that addressing it directly is actually very healthy and effective. It’s okay to tell your team. I know that in the past, we were jerks. I know that in the past, we had mandatory overtime for nine months in a row. I know that in the past, fill in the blank. Right? Those were mistakes. And I hope to earn your trust as we go forward, as we cooperate together to make this business better. But I wanted to address that with you and own it. And let you know, I realize that was an issue. We messed up. And we’re going to try not to do that. Yeah, that’s just hard. That’s a hard conversation.

Patrick Adams  

It’s a hard conversation to have. But then I mean, that goes a long way with people, you know, just the willingness to admit some mistakes or to say your salary as a leader is huge. I mean, I had an organization that I worked with. We do assessments with organizations and we always meet with every single person, one on one at the company, and we ask them the same questions. The questions are what’s good, what’s what’s working, what do you like about being here? What’s not good, what’s bad, and what’s not, you know? When not going well, and what opportunities do you see for improvement. And a lot of times, we start to see these big clusters, as we talk to people, you know, and they give us these answers. And we start seeing or hearing the same thing over and over again, with this one company. We heard accountability and leadership issues, challenges, leader leaders, not holding team members accountable favoritism, just a lot of negative stuff about leadership. And, you know, it wasn’t just one person, this was multiple people that said this, and when we presented it to leadership, you know, leadership could have responded in two different ways. One, they could have got upset and guard put their guard up and said, you know, these are all lies, this is, this is not true, this is and how we do things here. You know, or they could say, you know, what, this is our team, this is what they’re saying, we need to respect that, understand that this is how they feel, and we need to, to respond appropriately. And luckily, that is how this leadership team responded, they stood in front of the entire company, and they apologized for the things that had happened in the past and, and they presented a going forward plan about how they were going to change things going forward based on the response from their, their, their team. And, and then they held onto it, and they and they made sure that they followed through on it, and you would not believe it. I mean, there were people that were literally ready to break down in tears, because it was so such an emotional moment just to have leadership, say I’m sorry, and and say, here’s what we’re going to do to make this right, you know, such a such a defining moment for that company.

John Thacker  

That’s amazing and beautiful, you know, seeing people grow like that, I think is one of the more rewarding things that we do, at least for me. Absolutely no, true, true breakthrough. I think for the people involved.

Patrick Adams  

Absolutely. Any other gaps, have you seen anything else that you would call out that you would say, you know, this is an area where I think companies are really maybe struggling with on their journey?

John Thacker  

Yeah, so that can be industry specific, but just in the aggregate, the failure to recognize that the structure, particularly around your talent, right, you’re used to call it human resources, but your your talent structure is a critical lever to the outcomes that you’re getting, you know, I have not worked with too many companies that have a separate CI silo that they expect to change the company I haven’t worked with too many of them with that works very well. And there’s a reason for that. Right? The ownership has to be with the people doing the work, and just a lack of recognition of how structures that are there in place and the way people report to each other, etc. is a it’s bigger, right? You can’t go to a meeting and overcome that. Right? You can’t go five s your way out of your structure that has to be dealt with at some point.

Patrick Adams  

Absolutely. For sure. So many organizations, unfortunately, are set up that way from the beginning. And it is very difficult to get out of that, you know that that silo mindset, especially if like you said, the structure is built that way. You know, just understanding the value stream, just having a good value chain understanding or value stream understanding and knowing how, you know, things connect and processes should be connected. You know, is a good starting point, I guess I think about my childhood years back to the GI Joes. Did you watch GI Joes?

John Thacker

Oh, you better believe

Patrick Adams  

they used to have those commercials where they would say they would have teaching moments. And then at the end of it, they would say knowing is half the battle. Do you remember that? I do remember? Yeah. So I think about that, you know, just just knowing that you have silos knowing that your structure is that way. I mean, that’s half the battle. But the second part of it is taking action and doing something about it, like how do you change it? How do you do? I don’t know if you have any, any recommendations, any thoughts for the listeners around? You know what to do, if you find yourself in an organization that is structured in that way that has those silos or or that is structured in a way that makes it very difficult to conduct? Any type of CI, you know, transformation? Any thoughts?

John Thacker  

Yeah, it’s very challenging. And there’s so many moving parts, right, depending on how the company does the accounting, how they have this process and structure set up, et cetera, et cetera. But one thing that we’re continuing to see. I was just talking to Jake about this the other day, the original idea of value stream right after reorganizing your brain around value creation to the customer. We organized the operation around value stream, the major part of that was actually the people. So before you would have like an engineering group, and they would work on every product, now this engineer, you own this value stream. And they would do that with all of the support and everybody to get the attention where it needed to be right on that value stream. That was actually, when I was learning this stuff. That was the heart of value. It wasn’t moving machines around, right? It wasn’t what’s the track, the flow of the materials through the building that came later was actually around the people first. So again, a lot of moving parts, but for organizations in the and people in those orgs that have the authority to do so. That’s the first thing that I would look at is, can you rearrange your reporting structure around the value stream? Yeah,

Patrick Adams  

I agree, I think I actually worked for a value stream lead organization, and I worked as a value stream manager at one point in my career. And it was, it was pretty amazing to have complete ownership over the entire value stream, you know, from the point that the customer places an order to the point that the customer is receiving and paying for that order, you know, I had p&l responsibilities or my value stream, I had engineers, I had, you know, operations supervisors, I had planners all reporting directly to me. And so for me, personally, I had ownership over that entire value stream. So it wasn’t like, when I worked as a production supervisor, for example, over a well department, where I just maximized the, you know, the opportunities in that one, well, department and we, you know, just did some amazing work just in that one department. Now, I’m a value stream manager, where I, I can’t just maximize efficiency in one area, I can’t just reduce inventory in one area, I can’t just make improvements in one area, I have to have ownership over the entire value stream. So I have to make decisions for the entire value stream. And that completely changes the way that you think about your business, right as it ‘s almost your you’re almost owning your own business then Right. And so decisions are made quite a bit differently in that way. Yeah. And

John Thacker  

You’re able to capture value, right? Talking about the welding, I was working in a very large factory that had fabrication and assembly, and I was the manager of all of the material handling. So receipt of goods, taking it to the cells, taking it between the cells, taking the finished goods to the dock, shipping them. So really the blood of the factory, right. And because of that, I was able to change the processes, you know, around milk runs, and that sort of thing to maximize the flow. Prior to that they had, like the fab side of the building was their own group and had their own manager. And they’re looking at, you know, some old fashioned cost accounting sort of thing. And next thing, you know, their buckets of whip, you know, there’s knock down Gaylords. I don’t know what, but ya know exactly what I mean, buckets of that, like a dock full of them put it What are you doing with those? Right, and you can only sell them internally to that guy, right? That’s Monopoly money. Your Excel spreadsheet looks really good. And this manager over here is really mad at you. But for the company, nothing happened, except you locked a bunch of cash up in a whip that is going to take you six months to consume.

Patrick Adams  

Yep, that’s exactly right. So having having having an understanding of that, from a roles and responsibilities standpoint, and really looking at your org structure in a different way, it can be difficult to make that kind of adjustment, you know, and obviously, it can be very, it’s, it’s something that I wouldn’t suggest an organization just goes through and revamps their entire org structure. In one night, you know, this is a lot of work, a lot of planning, you know, in order to do this, and maybe even thinking about a model value stream, create a model value stream in your organization where you experiment with this. And you establish the value stream manager and give them responsibilities over a value stream and see how it goes. You know, do you put some plans together? Do it. Check, adjust. I think that would be my recommendation. But I don’t know what your thoughts are on that. If you would, how would you recommend someone going about that? 

John Thacker  

Call Patrick. First, You will need I’m only half funny, though. Yeah. Right. So for companies out there looking to do this, seriously, get some help, but that’s what we’re out in the world to do. You don’t have to go it alone. And you might avoid, you know, some major pitfalls just by having you know that guy in your corner.

Patrick Adams  

Sure. Sure. Yeah. Good suggestion. John, if you had a theme for what you do What would that be?

John Thacker  

So I like to imagine myself walking through life with like, one of those pro wrestlers, you know, like, there’s this theme song playing, like, every time I open my car door, you know, it’s like bad to the bone or something. I’m not that cool, you know, in real life, but if I had a theme, it would be human flourishing. I want everything I touch to turn to gold. And there’s, there’s kind of no reason for it not to, as long as I stay humble, and I’m agile. And I run, you know, what I do sort of as a PDCA cycle. So that’s really my theme is like, How can I help people flourish individually, right? Human Interaction, but then, of course, the company the business, like, we’re, we got to make money. We’re doing this for a reason. And it’s not to stand around a campfire and sing Kumbaya, right? We’ve got to make real money here. How can I help that flourish? Right. So, you know, maybe like a less negative version of King Midas? You know, I just want to touch everything and turn it to gold.

Patrick Adams  

I like it. That would be nice. But no, I mean, honestly, what you’re saying is, is very, I very much respect that because, you know, being humble, being humble, like you said, and wanting to help others. When you do that, when you set yourself up that way. And you, you make that your goal you are helping yourself to write. I mean, while you’re being humble enough to say, you know, I wanted to help myself and want to help others. I mean, it is what happens, you know, and that’s the amazing part about what we do. And that’s, you know, I obviously, I love what I do, as well just like, just like you do, and you know, our mission, my personal mission, and our company mission is to empower and equip people for positive change, which is very much in alignment with what your, you know, personal mission is to help people flourish. And so I love it. And I think that, you know, it’s very encouraging to hear that and know that that’s, that’s what you do. So what would you say would be your favorite part about helping people or helping companies improve?

John Thacker  

Well, so I’m going to tell a story here, I was working with a fella, I was the production manager at a factory. And I had a young leader, I don’t, I don’t remember what the various roles were called at this factory. But I would guess that he was paid by the hour, but was in charge of people. So like a team leader, or something like that, okay. And this guy looked like Mr. T. Okay, he had outrageous hair and beard, he had so much jewelry, I thought he was gonna get spina bifida or something. I mean, the guy that the guy was making a statement, and every third word was the F bomb. This guy was a rough character. And he got results, not in a good way. And I said, You know what, I’m going to offer all of the team leaders an opportunity for coaching. And there were three of them. And I did one on one coaching. And we went through the same book in the same coaching. It was centered a little bit on emotional intelligence, we actually went through the Seven Habits of

Patrick Adams  

Highly Effective People. Nice, good book.

John Thacker  

Yeah. Well, this one character, it turns out that he was the only one of the three that wanted to learn and to win. And he came in, he’s, I mean, tough guy, you know, I’m over here, like, I’m a big guy, I’m not small, but this guy was very large and scary. And he said, man laid on me, whatever you got, I’m all in, I want to win. And I want your job. Okay. I can work with that. And so, you know, as I started coaching, there’s a transition, you know, from sort of cordial relationship, feeling each other out. Eventually, there’s, you know, some walls come down, but some vulnerability and some openness, found out that his father had murdered his mother when he was very young. He had an autistic child. But his ex had sole custody, but his ex was addicted to drugs very badly. And so he was in the middle of trying to work that out, just whatever you could come up with. And then his father was getting out of prison, and he didn’t know how to handle that. He was going through this and it’s like, so Well, no wonder you’re speaking the way you’re speaking, you know, and I was able to coach him up. And I found him a job at another company, almost doubling his salary. He’s now married to a wonderful woman and has sole custody of his children who are receiving the care that they need. The education that they need, bought a home. That’s enough. Shell, you know, a great example of what I love to see, you know, in what I do. And I was interviewing for a job position, they said, What’s What’s your greatest, greatest success story from your career and actually told that story that, you know, that means a lot more than my, whatever. $30 million blackbelt project, that’s just money, right? And we’re gonna make money. If we work together, we’re gonna make a lot of money. There’s, they print it every day. But that that’s what really matters. And that’s what’s close to my heart. And and that’s a microcosm of what I want to see from my influence in the world.

Patrick Adams  

Yeah. Yeah, life is definitely about relationships, for sure. And building those types of relationships is definitely a huge positive about what we do. Yeah, that’s a great story, what a great story and assume you still, you’re still in contact with him, it sounds like and knowing that he’s on a good path is pretty amazing. Obviously, think about how much more effective he is, you know, given the growth that he’s experienced as a leader, and, you know, through some of the coaching that you’ve done, and probably other leaders have done with him, you know, so that’s, that’s pretty amazing. Any any word of advice for companies that want to go lean?

John Thacker  

Oh, yes. So I think the first advice that I give this to everybody that we have this conversation with, right? The first is, do you just straight up do you, right? Or is this like a buzzword, a shiny object? What do you want more of, what do you want less? Right, let’s start there, and then discuss it lean is the right path. Right? I’ve had this conversation with non manufacturing companies a lot. If it’s a manufacturing company, the conversation gets weird, because nobody wants to be in a lot of manufacturing spaces, without calling themselves lean. But when I’m talking about a bakery, and you know, construction companies and stuff like that, like we want to be a lean company, will do you like? What does that mean? What do you mean, when you’re saying that? What do you want more of and what do you want less? And then I’ll usually tip and trick for all the consultants out there, right? If you’re talking to the C level, guys, I’ll usually just casually as I’m leaving the meeting, I’ll just kind of turn back a little bit and say, Oh, what about yourself personally? Are you unwilling to change as we go through this transformation? Right, and it just gets them thinking, you can’t do this, if you don’t change yourself. That’s right, you’re gonna have to change your behaviors and modes of thinking, the way that you treat people, the metrics that you look at how you speak about the business, it’s a big challenge. So my advice to all companies is count the cost, don’t build half a tower and not be able to finish, you can be excellent, and you can pursue operational excellence without being lean. If that’s not your company, then it’s no big deal. Right? Don’t try to be something you’re not coming to terms with reality as quickly as you can. And that’ll help you be excellent from there. Right.

Patrick Adams  

I love it. Great advice, John. John, it’s been great having you on the show today? What if someone wants to get a hold of you? Obviously, we already talked about a quality podcast and so that people understand that we’ll drop the link to a quality podcast into the show notes as well. But if someone wants to get a hold of you, and they have more questions about maybe some of the topics that we talked about today, where would be the best place for them to reach you?

John Thacker  

Well, anybody can reach out on LinkedIn linkedin.com/i n slash, John dash thacker dash, Lean Six Sigma Black Belt. Also, Zoom op x.com Zoom, op x o p e x.com. You can contact me from the contact page there. Please reach out. I love making relationships, talking to people and shooting the bowl. Go ahead and reach out.

Patrick Adams  

We’ll talk perfectly, and especially if they like to smoke cigars, right? Absolutely. What’s your favorite? What’s your favorite cigar?

John Thacker  

Ooh, I would have to say the god of fire. 2017. Okay, it was a phenomenal cigar and I can’t find it. Oh, so we’ll have it.

Patrick Adams  

Alright, John, thanks again. Appreciate you being on. Enjoy your week and I will chat with you another time.

John Thacker

Thank you so much, Patrick. I appreciate it.

Patrick Adams  

Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the lean solutions podcast. If you haven’t done so already, please be sure to subscribe. This way you’ll get updates as new episodes become available. If you feel so inclined. Please give us a review. Thank you so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai